Arthur: [00:00:00] Welcome, everybody, to today's episode of Pitching Passion. It's a great honor to have Thomas Strankovich here today, the founder and managing director of Dream Bay Group, a talent management company for the creator economy. Maybe I'm sitting in the minority listeners or, members of the public here, but it seems to me the most exciting job, being able to deal with ideas, creators, brands,
So many extraordinary projects and being part of making these things happen, making dreams happen and riding the waves of all sorts of madness,
So many moving parts with these projects.
So can't wait to dive into that. But before we do dive in, I wanna give everyone a little bit more of a clear, succinct- Please ... informed version of what you've been up to. Dream Bay Group was founded in 2023 and represents creators including Sabrina Bassoon #TubeGirl, and operates as an official TikTok Shop agency partner, delivering campaigns for brands including L'Oréal, Nivea, MAC, The Ordinary,
in 2025, your group delivered over [00:01:00] 300 brand deals across 200 brand partners and crossed seven figures in revenue. Beyond representation, Thomas, you run a media advisory and IP deal-making practice. Recent work including working with Jeffrey Archer's estate five-book studio deal with Applause Entertainment and a partnership with SuperBooks, the children's audio platform backed by all five members of the dragons on BBC
Thomas: BBC
Arthur: Dragon's Den.
You also sit on the committee for the ITVX B Creator Awards and the Digital Broadcast Awards. Before DBG
You spent seven years at Amazon Studios across LA, Mumbai, and London helping launch Amazon's Indian content slate, including The Family Man, Komistan, Four More Shots Please, and developing UK series, including Ten Percent and Wilderness, having earlier trained as an agent at United Talent Agency,
Okay, so we-
Where do we go from there? We sweated a bit. We talked quite a lot. Do you have a dream job?
Thomas: I'm living my dream [00:02:00] job, I've always hated being put
Arthur: into a box,
Thomas: and I made a very deliberate choice to try to get as much experience across as many different parts of the entertainment industry as possible,
i've done the talent representation side. I've done, in-house development. I've worked on unscripted, scripted, film, TV, sports, comedy, dating, reality, drama, I TikTok, Shop Now, marketing campaigns, the creator economy. I've loved all of it, but it's informed, I think, my decisions and how we operate on the day-to-day, but I think I am truly living my dream job.
Arthur: . Where is the crux of that joy from?
Thomas: from? The crux of that joy is that you wake up every day and you don't know what to expect. I know my, my friends and my wife think I'm crazy, because even on the worst days, I'll wake up and we will just have the biggest problem, and I will have the biggest smile
Arthur: my face-
because
Thomas: I'm like, "This is gonna be so much to solve," [00:03:00] 'cause we'll get through it. Everyone gets through. It's, the journey, and I actually like, like very much love what I get to do and I consider myself and all of us incredibly lucky to work in this industry. I always compare it, if you want a 9:00 to 5:00 job, this isn't it, and so we give up that 9:00 to 5:00 schedule in order to work on amazing campaigns and art and impact people's lives and go to premieres and product launches. And so
It's fun at the end of the day, so I love it. That's where the joy comes
from.
Arthur: In some senses we're all artists- Yeah
in what we do, and we have a brush and we paint with that. What kind of brush do you think you are and how do you really think do you see your impact on the world as you know- Yeah ... as having and being?
Thomas: I think currently, 'cause I've had a lot of different roles, let's say, over my life, and lived in different cities, different markets, different languages.
I think right now the [00:04:00] brush we are painting with is bringing, f- film and TV level representation to the creator economy, right? My background was in film and TV at Amazon Studios and the streaming world, and I worked in, some of the very small teams with the most brilliant people out there.
Where we really got to build one of the largest streaming services out there. So from that experience, we got, I got so much insight in just how this is all done. And so what we wanted to do is bring all of that knowledge, expertise, process to the creator economy, which can be like the Wild West.
. It really can be, right? . So that's the brush we're painting with- ... now, I'd say, which is an exciting brush.
Arthur: Let's jump into what that really means.
Thomas: I
Think the interesting thing for what we do, which is talent management, is anyone can do it.
You could start an agency tomorrow.
Arthur: The
Thomas: guy down the hall from our office can start one. There's no barrier to entry. There's no test that you need to take. [00:05:00] Nothing like that. So I think as an industry as a whole, one, that is a very beautiful part about our industry and entertainment is that you have people from all different backgrounds, education systems parts of the world come in and make an impact, right?
That's why it's really beautiful. But you also get a lot of bad actors, people who don't know what they're doing, and that ends up leaving lots of scars and leaving the industry in a bad place. So what we wanna be able to do is come into, the creator economy, which is the fastest growing sector of the entertainment industry, and bring a lot of the, standards and procedures that come with decades and decades of the film and TV process.
From contracting to c- like language, to actual process to professionalism across meetings and communication monetization and licensing as well. So bringing the best of those worlds and pairing it, I think, with the beauty of what the creator economy is, which is really the Wild West of creativity, so that's where we see ourselves in the market, being [00:06:00] able to bring this level of expertise and insight to this world that is blowing up and-
Arthur: Really going on a
journey. And w- creator economy,
Thomas: yeah, creator economy
Arthur: People are will sit differently with what that is.
Yeah. How do you explain it to people? 'Cause you represent talent in loads of fields. Jump in. Show us what's that.
Thomas: The creator economy is, I guess for another word, like social media, but I also say now it is blending with traditional entertainment, right? And there's examples of that where we see traditional entertainment players, and even the streamers, are now starting to come to creators in order to help bring viewers to their service, right?
Some examples of that are Netflix, doing shows with the Sidemen
Arthur: doing
Thomas: podcast deals with Spotify and bringing over creators, in a sense to their services, and Amazon doing their creator show and filming with doing a documentary on Molly-Mae, for instance. So creators in my mind, anyone with a digital audience probably started digital native as [00:07:00] well what we used to call influencers too, and so anything that touches those types of businesses, right?
So social media, direct-to-platform monetization content creation, brand deals, marketing anything in that world. So you can see how it's all coming together now- ... with more traditional film and TV.
Arthur: We live in such an exciting time, right?
You could grow up with not many resources anywhere in the world, and if you've got access to YouTube, what you can learn and,. even participate, it, it's pretty extraordinary. And wow, you're in such a privileged position to be able to meet these, these folk, as it were, who end up building extraordinary extraordinary communities based on things that, you know
These niche communities- Absolutely ... can be ... They're just not niche, right? Give us a sense of the business model of being a creator.
Thomas: all right, so I think another good way to also to your last question is what is the creator economy? I think any creator is someone who has not waited for the gatekeeper to tell them, "You can make this," right?
Before social media came and before influenc- [00:08:00] influencer culture came, you had to go get projects commissioned by someone, a gatekeeper. Get them to say yes, bless it, fund it, then it goes out. Creator economy gave that access and democratized it to everyone. You can build a following. I can build a following.
I can do my projects. You can do your projects and monetize off of that. So I think that's also another good way to explain who is a creator, right? We're all creators in some sense. Now, in terms of the business element of the creator economy, you can bucket things into two. Direct from platform and off of platform, let's just call it, right?
You make money by views, AdSense on YouTube, getting paid per views on TikTok licensing your content out to fast channels and getting advertising portions of that. And then outside of being paid directly from the platforms, you make money via brand deals, licensing your image, product sales as well.
So you'd bucket those two avenues there. So as a [00:09:00] creator, you have to figure out, okay, how am I earning from my content? How do I make my content work harder, better, faster, longer? Remonetizing it and licensing it off of your channel as well. And then making yourself brand friendly enough to do brand deals and hopefully some creators end up launching their own product lines, whether that's merchandise, skincare, hair oil cups, bottles, whatever it may be.
And then I'd say, then I would say when you get really big, then it turns into getting to a place where you get sweat equity in a business and start investing from that level, too. So those are, three avenues, two or three avenues.
Arthur: By no means does it seem easy what these people do. Ferocious hard work. And very lonely at times. It would be interesting to know the stats on how much time the average person in the UK or the US or where, people generally spend on social media.
Yeah. But, you look at the, some of these influencer lives, you're like, "Oh, they're on a yacht again." Wow, like what an amazing life. But I think behind the scenes it's a pretty difficult, you know- It is- ... world to, to be in
Thomas: an amazing life." But I think behind the scenes it's a pretty difficult, you know- It is- ... place to be in ... incredibly difficult. I think it's an incredibly isolating [00:10:00] profession as well. You think about it, you get to go to these events, you get to have fun. A lot of it is really fun. A lot of it is.
Quite often you have to go to events on your own, so you have to then be an extrovert, put yourself out there, meet people, make sure your content looks fun while you're there, even if you're not having fun, for your audience, and then you come home and edit, and editing is a solo sport, right? So you spend a lot of time at your phone editing, deliver a draft, get feedback, change the draft, post, and then get feedback from your audience.
So the actual process can be very isolating. Not only that, the actual craft is really difficult, too. Editing and creating something to go viral and that's gonna resonate with your audience is not easy, and these algorithms, no one knows exactly how they work, so a lot of the times you're just playing the slot machine of, let's see how this does.
Now, of course, you can dig into what works and what doesn't with your audience and get feedback, but there's a ton of time, effort, resource, energy, money that goes into keeping these businesses afloat. [00:11:00] So I like to think for our job as managers, we play part business advisor and, business partner,
Arthur: part
Thomas: creative partner, but also part therapist as well.
You're just the, you're a shoulder to lean on and an ear because it's qu- it's a quite hard profession. A lot of people underestimate it, I would say.
Arthur: Is there a creator that you're really inspired by?
Arthur: they connect to- behind what they do and, Yeah 'Cause I think people do different things for different reasons, right? And like- Absolutely ...
people who really change the world, there seems to be quite big beliefs and things that they wanna impact, often from quite good places- Yeah ... that really get them to work incredibly hard.
Does that strike at all with
you?
Thomas: Yeah. I think I'll give you one creator we represent and one we don't- Yeah ...
Arthur: we don't, you know, Yeah ...to be unbiased
Thomas: here. We represent and we're privileged to work with a creator named Dan Shrigley. Dan and his partner Tom founded a men's community group called Shoulder to Shoulder, [00:12:00] which is combating men's loneliness across the
country and spreading positive masculinity in a time where there are plenty of bad role models for young men out there.
And Dan has found a fantastic audience. He has given something to his audience, not only through content, but actual resource and help for these men across the country to do meetups for walks, movie nights, game nights book club, and they've grown it to thousands of members,
Arthur: and
Thomas: that started out of a passion from himself, right?
Dealing
Arthur: with
Thomas: that,
Arthur: with his
Thomas: own father that he talks about. He is a fantastic example of this is a a cause dear to my heart.
I can do content around this, but I actually really care about making this better. So it comes from a place of genuine want and desire and he's built a fantastic community, and because of how authentic he is, and you can tell that through his content, [00:13:00] that's led for him to be able to create a fantastic business as well.
But you don't lead with the business. You don't... The people who come into the industry going, "I want to just get rich," tend to not have long-lasting careers, right? So Dan Shrigley is a great example from our roster who we're great thankful to work with, and I'll say too, a creator who I absolutely adore her name is Mia McGrath,
Arthur: and
Thomas: she started revealing to her audience all of the economics on how she makes money as a creator.
So she'll say, "In the month of February, I made $2,000 from affiliate links, $4,000 from brand deals, $5,000 from direct revenue f- from the platforms," and puts it all out there for her audience, which w- a lot of creators would hide that. They don't want to talk
Arthur: talk- ... about that
Thomas: side of the business, and she's built an incredible audience, and I think just won an award at a Creator Fest
but another example of she's giving information to her audience, right? [00:14:00] She's demystifying the space, and has been able to build a community, but also teach them, "Hey, if you wanna be a content creator, here's how- Yeah ... great and difficult it is month by month, and I'll be the honest one to tell you that." So I think w- with content creation, with the internet, you have to give something to your audience.
If you're just gonna keep taking away, you're not gonna grow. You won't be successful. You have to figure out what are you giving to your audience to really grow. So I think Dan does a great job, and Mia does a great job, too.
Arthur: Characters and, forces. Your world is filled with so many fascinating people. And it, it's clear, when people have an audience when there's real hardcore evidence that they're doing very well they can make themselves money and, Yeah ... and,
Thomas: themselves money and,
Arthur: institutions that are involved with them. But sometimes horses pre-win the wins get spotted.
Are there things or stories that you've heard about instances where someone's been spotted in quite a unique way that's gone on to end up doing incredibly well, [00:15:00] maybe as an actor, maybe as a writer, or just something quirky,
Thomas: Oh, man. I remember hearing the Idris Elba story, right? Where I think he came to the US to audition for The Wire,
Arthur: and
Thomas: he has a British accent, and that show obviously is not a British show. And so he faked an American accent in order to get the part. I don't know if that's really an example of what you're asking, but I think what, what, like when we talk about scouting talent, right?
Part of what you have to have as a talent manager is taste. You have to be able to see is there talent here, and is there a business here, right? And can I help this person get to the next level, and there, is there a sellable package there
That is every talent manager and agent across the board.
And, creative and art is very subjective someone who I find funny and extremely talented, you may not find funny and
Arthur: and talented.
Thomas: So it's figuring out, okay do we, I want to spend the time, [00:16:00] resource, and effort and truly believe in this person. So I don't think there's ever any one, mark that's gonna tell you this person will be great or not.
If it was that
easy,
Arthur: our lives
Thomas: would be a lot easier, I'll tell you.
Arthur: no big red button
Thomas: "That's the one. That's the one." For us, we tend to, talk to clients with a variety of different following, a variety of different engagement rates. It has to start with are we passionate about who they are and what they're doing and what their content is?
When we started working with Sabrina it was right at the cusp of her, going viral. She had started dancing on the Tube and she became, an overnight sensation, and has been able to, keep that business going for the past two years now, right?
And she's someone who shot up overnight, so you will have instances where you know, people day by day, really slow journey, then some people who just get it incredibly right. Audiences love them for some reason, and their content just cuts through and overnight- Yeah ... they're [00:17:00] a superstar. So we've seen it both ways.
Arthur: Fascinating. I had the privilege of interviewing a chap called Ollie Marlowe-Thomas Okay ... who sold his business to SmartLeave over $100 million- ... in, the advertising technology space, and he said the one thing people want from advertising at the moment, can you guess what it is?
Thomas: Authenticity. It
Arthur: authenticity. It is authenticity. Oh, I- Whoa. Whoa
Thomas: Come on.
Arthur: Come on. Ding. Okay.
Authenticity. Now, we've touched on the whole algorithm, the beast of the algorithms. When you get asked, how can I make content that's gonna kick off?"
What goes through your mind? .. Are there three things you're like, try this?"
Thomas: this"? I think it's different for everyone. I think you have to experiment.
I think you can't get down and discouraged when things don't really pop off. Every person who started in content was not very good at it in the beginning. People get better at things over time, [00:18:00] and I think it's really easy with social media to look at someone and go they got famous really fast and easy and it wasn't hard."
Back to our point of is it a hard job. Yeah.
Arthur: Yeah. And so
Thomas: so as a smaller creator, you tend to go, "Why isn't it happening for me?" We have a great example of one of our clients, a Sienna Santer, right? She made it a goal, "I want to do more work within F1. I love F1. I wanna make it to Silverstone." She put her head down for six months, did F1 content consistently- found her format, and really became the creator to help the girlies understand F1, right? Kinda demystified the sport in a way. Six months later, she was at Silverstone with Audi and Revolut, right? Six months is also a short period. It can take way longer than that, but just to say that it takes a long time, it takes experimenting, and it takes also probing your audience for what they want.
It baffles me sometimes that creators are sometimes scared to ask their [00:19:00] audience "What do you wanna see more of?" and, "Do you like this content?" And then using that data. - When I was at Amazon, we used to have a saying that use the data to make the most informed decision, but don't let the data control the decision, right?
Quite often you, your algorithm, you look at views, shares, likes, reposts, and all of that. You wanna use that to inform your decision on what type of content to do, but don't let that own your business and your creative choices. You can't.
Arthur: A way of balance to m- it makes me think of your gut, your intuition and- Absolutely ... and how that feeds into it.
Thomas: fascinating, the, the Formula 1 example. Thank, thanks for sharing that.
Arthur: fascinating, the, the 41 example. Thanks for sharing that.
Thomas: Yeah. I can share some stats on it after. I think we have a case study we're gonna put out on it, 'cause I think it's a great example of put in the hard work and it will happen, yeah. Consistency.
In, in any job, not even just content, right? Like- Yeah.
Arthur: Yeah. So it...
Thomas: thomas, there's,
Arthur: Thomas, there's h- hundreds of things we can dive into today. But, all the time you will see ideas, fascinating things taking off, and that's down to, people connecting [00:20:00] and just getting shit done. Are there things that you feel
Arthur: A- and are not voiced enough and that really help people make their dreams come true?
Thomas: So I remember when I first came into the workforce and started interviewing,
Arthur: the
Thomas: one question I got asked in every interview in Los Angeles when I was trying to get into one of the talent agencies was, "Where do you get your news from?" And I remember unpacking that question.
That is a question probing on how up-to-date are you in the industry and how do you stay up-to-date, right? And in every interview I do, I ask the same question. The number one thing you can do is stay up-to-date with what is happening in your industry. And when we say news, that doesn't mean watching live news coverage, right?
That means making sure you're following the right things on social media the right creators, following industry news, not just who's made a [00:21:00] video, but which executives are moving around to which brand house or agency, or which film director got his film picked up. The secret sauce that I learned at the beginning was read as much as you can about the industry that you wanna be in.
The more knowledgeable you are,
Arthur: the
Thomas: more you're able to bring up what's happening in a meeting to your boss, to your colleague at a lunch. The more interesting and knowledgeable you are to those people around you, the faster you are to get promoted, the more intelligent you are around clients that you want to sign.
So I would say you have to show interest and you have to, digest news on a hourly, minute-by-minute basis of the industry you want to work in. And if you're not doing that, sadly other people are,
Arthur: Yeah.
Thomas: So I'll give you an example of when I lived in India I had moved there, I didn't speak Hindi.
I didn't know much about Bollywood or the Indian cinema landscape or streaming landscape or much about the country.[00:22:00]
Arthur: I
Thomas: remember being there going like, "Okay, what can I do to better learn this market, this industry? Where am I gonna get my news?"
Arthur: Right?
Thomas: I asked tons of friends, which news publication should I follow?
And my routine, what I ended up with was I watched one Bollywood film a week at minimum to just familiarize myself with a lot of the cultural context that was happening I did Hindi lessons once a week to try to get a sense of the local language. And then I hate to admit this, but then I littered my social media feeds with all of the Bollywood gossip columns I could find.
'Cause those columns told me who was dating who, who was traveling where, which show was filming where, which TV show was getting picked up and canceled, and my world became consumed with Indian news around entertainment and pop culture, and that's how I was able to be successful while living there. So I think take that example, apply it to whatever industry you're in, but you have to start with showing genuine interest, and that comes with reading constantly about what's going on in your [00:23:00] field.
Arthur: Ultimately, stripping that down, it's like if you're like super young, it's r- really, find out what's really fun for you.
What are you naturally wanting to read? And if you can be associated as your work, dragging your work to your interest- ... that's a nice place to be, right? 'Cause ultimately, the, the people that really you have to work super hard to do very well, and that's much easier when you, like when you have a natural interest, right?
One of the most interesting conversations I've ever had through someone who was sharing advice was, he talked about, question what you're seeing around you. When you see- A boss of, for a tourist in a, a niche area, ask yourself why, what does that mean? And just think, like process, like question why, why does...
It could be really simple, but why is this, tin colorful? That there's like logic to that. Why is it metal? It's a premium tin. Just everything, right? Yeah. It's quite full procurement.
Thomas: Yeah. I think
If you find yourself asking why, I think it's a good indicator that you're fascinated and curious about that industry, when I see an announcement of any film, TV, creator [00:24:00] thing, marketing campaign, I get excited, and there's a version of asking why did that happen?
Why'd they choose that person?" So if you find yourself feeling that in a certain industry, I think that's a good sign that I like that industry and follow more into
Arthur: definitely.
Yeah. That's fascinating. Jumping in because, you're very fortunate that you get to be, parts of so many different worlds. Jeffrey Archer, it, that's a very different world to- Very different world ...
Thomas: world than The creator economy.
Arthur: Yeah.
W- based on i- in the different realms of content that you see what is not being produced enough of?
Thomas: I think you can apply that question at a micro level to each industry, right? If you look at box office in the traditional theatrical sense, right? It was just... You have to have a big blockbuster in order to make money, and now it's horror films have been the most successful over the past few years and have the most kind of ROI.
There's a lot of people saying there's a huge market for comedies that can come back into, mainstream theatrical [00:25:00] release. I think we're starting to see a lot more escapist programming and lighthearted programming because the world and our actual reality can be quite heavy. So you see a lot of those commissioning decisions across the board.
But I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I mean- Yeah ... I love escapist programming and great stuff. The space everyone is trying to figure out and explore is the vertical drama space. I don't know if you've heard of vertical dramas, when y- if you're scrolling on TikTok and what looks like an advert for a really cheesy looking drama, soapy drama of a CEO who's slept with his mistress- .
Okay clearly we're on
Arthur: pages.
Thomas: Right? But the- It's not a very good day. Yeah. These, these micro dramas, which have been massive in China, they're vertical dramas, meaning they're two e- two-minute episodes. You can watch up to episode 10 or 12, and then you have to pay per episode after that, right?
There's a cliffhanger every 12, 15 seconds. It seems like the stories are pretty basically written. And every celebrity [00:26:00] brand is trying to figure out Are vertical dramas real and what is our take on them, right? You're starting to see a lot of vertical series also pop up on Instagram as well, right?
The Brooklyn Coffee Shop one that just won some awards. So I think everyone's trying to figure out this new medium and if it's going to be real, vertical dramas. So
Arthur: I
Thomas: don't know if I have an answer to what's not being produced. You know what I'd love to see is more premium TV and film content on YouTube.
I think that'd be pretty, pretty cool, although I don't know how the funding economics would really work. But I would love to see, an initiative to bring some really good premium level film and TV- ... to YouTube, I think would, which would help the entire kind of footprint and ecosystem.
What do you think?
Arthur: About what's under- underdone?
Thomas: I'd love more Odyssey level movies out there, but,
Arthur: Yeah. I- IMAX,
Thomas: more IMAX movies maybe?
Arthur: Oh. What I think is undergone... That's too good a [00:27:00] question.
What I get really impressed by is people who are very good at explaining what they feel in, in, in niche moments.
And I think a lot of content that we absorb, y- it, it connects us to how we feel. We're like, "Oh my God, other people feel like that." Yeah. So I think sometimes you see Instagram pages do that really well. I think that's super interesting, and how,
That proliferates. So- Yeah ... for example, if someone's got an Instagram account about what their therapist says, does that-
Is, does that, end up being a book as well, a TV show? Yeah. And how these things can really fell out into doing a lot more,
Arthur: like even a [00:28:00] course or whatever it is and how they end up m- monetizing. Speaking of monetization- Yeah ... I feel like we're in the most exciting time in history to be a creator.
, If you're a creator, you can make money in more ways right now quicker than there's ever been at any other time- Yeah ... in the history of humanity. Are there some really cool exciting examples of that to you?
Thomas: If you look at the ultimate creator MrBeast, he's been able to build an empire that now spans food and chocolate, right?
To think about going from YouTube videos to j- being able to sell chocolate bars at scale, and I even think I read that he might even have his own bank coming out, right? They've filed for a copyright or something like that. I don't know if it's true or not. But I think he represents the ultimate ceiling of what can be done as a creator when you get to that scale.
Once you have audience and you have trust [00:29:00] and you have authenticity, of course, right? You can find yourself getting into so many different, fields. We work with a lot of creators within the beauty fashion space.
Arthur: A
Thomas: few of them have the credibility, maybe the training, and maybe the audience where they can launch their own skincare products, right?
Karishma Vijay, who just won the BBC's Apprentice, and, got investment from Lord Sugar, she has her own skincare company and product line, now, there's tons of other creators who work within beauty who don't have their own skincare line, but that's because it's, it very integral to Karishma's story and what she's all about.
And she's built that over time. So I think being able to get to a place where you can figure out, can I give my audience something that they actually find helpful that's maybe in product form? That's always really exciting, whether that's a drink or a protein or a skincare product or a beauty product.
I think that's, like, where businesses really start to take off. [00:30:00] But that's incredibly tough. It's incredibly tough.
Arthur: The
Thomas: other thing I think that's really popping off now that we're seeing are businesses getting onto TikTok Shop, generating hundreds of thousands of dollars a month in GMV on TikTok Shop, eating into Amazon's, I think, market share, where I think they were the big e-commerce player at the time, where TikTok themselves are now doing, hundreds of millions of pounds, in revenue a quarter.
I think that's another really exciting space,
And you don't have to be a creator to do that. You just, you can be a great marketing person and figure out a product and figure out a need. So I think TikTok Shop pr- presents itself as a really interesting space right now. The world of live streaming on, whether that's YouTube, Twitch,
Arthur: or Kick-
Thomas: and monetizing via audiences and IRL streaming
Arthur: is,
Thomas: pretty massive. And what IShowSpeed is doing
Arthur: is,
Thomas: Insane with how big he's gotten from streaming. So yeah, if I'm a creator, I would look at [00:31:00] live, I'd look at is there a product that's natural to me that actually would help my audience not like your old school merch and IP.
I think IP would be the last thing, right? And what I mean by that is do I have a recurring format with my audience that I can brand and turn into a weekly
Arthur: daily
Thomas: show IP that I can monetize via merchandise and branding and newsletters and exclusive access and licensing episodes out and hopefully maybe getting a larger TV show order at a streaming service.
So those are the spaces I think if I was a creator, I would make sure I'm exploring where there's lots of money.
Arthur: Are there top, two books that really highlight for you strategies for creators on, how to grow?
Thomas: Two things I've read which I love. One was the, the MrBeast document of when you join his company that leaked. Did you see that? When you join his company, everyone has to read his document about
Arthur: philosophy-
Thomas: working
at his company, right?
The kind of work ethic and problem-solving he expects and I just [00:32:00] absolutely love the way he approaches
Arthur: work
Thomas: and how he wants everyone to really care about what they're doing. Be passionate about it. And then reading The Mailroom as well. I don't... I think everyone who worked in Hollywood had to read The Mailroom at one time, which
Arthur: like- ... a collection
Thomas: of stories from people in, in the mailroom from back in the day.
And so those were two,
Arthur: two
Thomas: things. MrBeast's way more recent and Mailroom was a while ago, but I'll never forget reading that and still have it, I think, at my house.
Arthur: Really great. Recommendations. One, so new and, Yeah ... on the pulse and the other so prevalent today, the world of brands, a big part of your business is connecting brands to people who can promote them, right? Correct. It seems like there's so- such a big gap between brands, being able to reach the, creators. Sure, or partners. But there's so many creators, how brands connect to creators, it seems very inefficient from the outside. Is that true?
Thomas: Yeah. Is that true? Inefficient or efficient?
Arthur: Inefficient. Inefficient. Yeah. Is that completely- untrue?
Thomas: I [00:33:00] would say that's untrue. I think just because there are layers of communication, that is not a bad thing.
Managers and agents exist for a reason, and that is to protect the performer and the artist. If you go back to when agents actually became a profession, why that happened was because the movie studios were able to get tons of stuff as the actors, because there was no one there helping them fight for their own rights.
Arthur: So there
Thomas: may be layers of conversation, and maybe that slows things down, and I know of course it can absolutely be frustrating, but I think about it that those layers exist because of the best interests of the people on the other sides of those layers, right? We're able to give our knowledge and fight for our clients as best we can, play bad guy when we need to.
The agencies who represent the brands, they do the exact same thing, right? We function in a very similar way. Often it's a great experience, and it isn't inefficient. But I think people tend to just look at the layers and speed, but [00:34:00] I think there's so many more elements that go into why do these layers exist, and it exists from a place of protection.
Absolutely. So we hear so many stories when we meet with potential clients and, clients we've signed, where they entered into deals, they had no idea what they were. They've given usage to their content for a year, two years, three years, because that's because they didn't have the advice or an advisory or someone to say, "That is not industry standard.
Do not accept that."
Arthur: The
Thomas: brands know what's industry standard, so sometimes they're able to skirt around that. That is not at every brand. Most brands are completely fair. But there are so many horror stories like that out there, and so those layers exist for a reason, in my mind.
Arthur: I really believe that the truly brightest people, and bright in the sense of it could be, , the best cricket players or people who think in a really specific niche way, that just, they're so much disproportionately are there some cases of call it marketing online, maybe it's like guerrilla marketing, whatever, but ultimately a brand [00:35:00] trying to reach their audience, and they've done that in such a clever way Are there some examples of that you're like, that you just have always been really blown away by?
How, maybe how left field it's been or...
Thomas: Like a great example of a brand, reaching an audience.
Arthur: Yeah, getting attention.
Thomas: The executive over at Urban Decay named Kaner, who's absolutely brilliant, I just saw he posted, they did a campaign where they had Urban Decay featured at you know the Nacho Libre Mexican wrestling- ... with the, the masks? And I absolutely loved that. I was like, "I never would have guessed
Arthur: Urban Decay,
Thomas: This, this wonderful makeup company associated with Nacho Libre Mexican wrestling."
And it was fantastic. I could not believe it. So definitely look it up. So I think that's a great example of doing something totally unexpected, to get some attention. I think the early ads that Duolingo was doing in the early days were [00:36:00] really good.
Arthur: That's a good example. That's fantastic.
Can you think of tales that just really are quite extraordinary around the world of talent and managing talent
Thomas: tales? Go read The Mail Room, you'll find stories in there
For us, talent management has taken us all over the world.
We've been able to do deals across Europe, the US, Middle East, Asia. The team's been able to fly over. I've been able to fly all over and you just never know what to expect. But that's the beauty of it. If you like waking up, solving problems, and being comfortable with being uncomfortable, not knowing what's gonna happen, then it's a great field of work,
Arthur: your job, it sounds like there's always gonna be more opportunities on the table, right?
If you're a creator, you've got a following, there's endless impact and- Yeah ... there's n- the, the string doesn't end, as it were.
Thomas: no, not at all.
Arthur: So
often in life, the people who really get things done, they're not afraid
They will push, they will find doors, they will look- Yeah
really think left field about how to make things happen. Can [00:37:00] you think of any striking examples of that?
Thomas: examples of that? Yeah, I think you have to have a hustle bone to work in this industry.
Yeah. I joke with my team that I'm from a different generation than my team. I have a very young team, which I love, and they're the best and fantastic. But I know we have a very different take on making phone calls.
My generation, calling someone w- very normal, right? You'd call someone, they'd pick up.
When I was being trained in the industry, you were rolling calls. Everything was done via calls, and it's really funny with my with my team. I'll ask, "Hey, do we call them?" And in the beginning, it'd be like call them, right? And they told me
Arthur: But-
Thomas: "If you call me, it'd be weird. I wouldn't wanna pick up the phone.
We would text." And so I think that's an interesting generational difference for sure. And so I'm a big proponent of
Arthur: pick
Thomas: up the phone and call people, if we s- you know, if you send an email and you don't get a response that's not actually reaching out and doing it. Have we tried calling them as well?
Have you tried connecting with them [00:38:00] on LinkedIn? Have you looked at who they're connected to on LinkedIn and trying to
Arthur: to go through-
Thomas: a different way? Is their company hosting an event? Do we have an invite to that event? Can we go and meet them? Have you tried messaging them on social media? So
Arthur: you
Thomas: to have that mentality of, "I haven't exhausted all my options yet."
There's always another option. There always is. I love that mentality and hustle culture in a way. And I think the pho- the phone generational difference is just a good
Arthur: example-
Thomas: of, the difference of
Arthur: between
Thomas: Gen Z and Millennial, but I love it. Now, the team loves picking up the phone, calling.
And what we have seen is you develop better relationships when you meet people and talk to people and hear their voice. You hear emotions. You're able to negotiate in a different way, in a fairer way. And so I think email can be quite cold sometimes. And so I know this is a weird specific example and I sound like a, maybe
Arthur: no, not at all ... complaining
Thomas: Boomer over [00:39:00] here, but yeah, weirdly I think, pick up the phone. It's okay to pick up the phone and talk to people. I love it. I love it. Maybe people on the other end hate me calling them, but
Arthur: them. I love it.
Thomas: love it. I love it.
Arthur: Is there something that we've not talked on that you feel you're really grateful for having chosen this path?
Thomas: Yeah, the single biggest decision I made in my career, which was the, also the scariest, was leaving the US and moving to India.
At the time, I had a great job. I was on a good path. My family was in Los Angeles. My friends were in Los Angeles. And the, the head of international came in and was like, "We're hiring in India and Japan. Is anyone interested in going?" And no one really showed interest. And I sat there at my desk like,
Arthur: well- Twitching
Thomas: that sounds awesome. Please." And I went in and told my boss "I'd love to go to India." S- something just spoke to me about doing that, and couldn't explain why. And he was like, "Really? You want to do that?" I was like, "Yeah." And so within the company, I could [00:40:00] see that India was gonna be a massive priority for us as a business.
I wanted, a different experience. I wanted to learn a new market, and going there I remember there was a quote at the time that really got me through it, . i heard the quote from the Reverend T.D. Jakes, and he said, "If your dreams don't scare you, you're not dreaming big enough."
And I remember being so scared in that moment, being like, "What am I doing? Why am I leaving all this and going to the other side of the world?" I was so scared, but I was like, "You know what? That is a good feeling, and lean
Arthur: into that feeling."
Oh, fascinating. And
Thomas: that led me to Bombay, two and a half years, the best decision of my life.
I met so many friends, colleagues, worked on the most amazing things. It got me to London, and it prepared me for launching my own business. It's how I met my wife. So I would say when you're feeling scared about a decision, that's a good feeling. Yeah. Lean into it, do it. And getting out of my comfort zone, leaning in, going to learn a new [00:41:00] market was the
Arthur: thing I could have ever done. Yeah. Thomas, it's been such a pleasure to have you today. You've given us such a rich insight into the m- multitude of things in your world. And what's really - notable about you is, you're clearly a, big force for, creating value, but you, and you've got passion for that be it for the talent, be it for the brands.
And I hope that listeners will get a sense of, how to combat uncertainty because you've clearly demonstrated such , a powerful force for, things working out really and backing yourself.
Thomas: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it's been it's been quite a journey. Entrepreneurship is a rollercoaster for sure. You have the highest of highs, the lowest of lows. I have an amazing team around me as well that make it possible. I truly believe if you work hard the opportunity will find you.
And the beauty about entertainment and the creative industries is that it accepts people from all different backgrounds. And so [00:42:00] anyone can get into it, and it's not too late. O- one other thing, I always give this advice to our talent assistants that I want to just say. Back to my whole rant on reading the news and being educated and well-informed on what's happening in your field.
I remember saying one of the most valuable things you can do as a talent assistant early on in your career is come into the office and have the phrase, "Hey, did you see?" Meaning, "Hey, did you see what happened with that person? Hey, did you see what was on the news last night? Hey, did you see what this brand did?
Hey, did you see what that person did?" That is so much value creation that you're bringing to the table and sharing with us, and if you're able to finish that sentence, "Hey, did you see?" That means you're up to date on current news and what's going on within your industry. So every interview, I always say know at least three or four things about the industry before going into the interview because someone will ask you, "What are three things going on right now in the industry that [00:43:00] interest you?"
"Hey, did you see," I think should be a part of any young person's vocabulary getting into the
Arthur: I love that so much, and certain things flow, positivity- Yeah ... interest, care, and these things, they do have an impact. If you're curious and you're pushing that to a dinner, other people are gonna be pushing that.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and it's, I think it's, can be hard to know truly how you get impacted by people, Yeah ... for the good and for the bad. But yeah, what a brilliant, beautiful example that you shared, so thank you so much.
