Arthur: [00:00:00] Welcome, everybody, to today's episode of Pitching Passion. It's a great pleasure to have Edward East, the founder of Billion Dollar Boy Group, Ed, you're an entrepreneur but you're a kind of serial marketer as it were with a business touching in lots of different services around helping brands get attention and influencing, yeah, top lines, bottom lines.
To give everybody an insight into the group. Billion Dollar Boy was set up in 2014 and is a global leader in creator-led brand building, delivering award-winning social-first and creator marketing campaigns. Over 50 million revenue at the moment. 60 awards won, growing about 70% year on year, strong margin, profitable, over 200 people, father of two and have been working with the likes of brands such as Heineken Nike Unilever, Pepsi, L'Oréal. And have been recognized on the Financial Times list of 1,000 fastest growing companies in Europe.
You help brands deliver paid ads [00:01:00] help them connect to so many different influencers. And what's really striking is just how quickly you're growing. And therefore, how good it is that you are at what you're doing.
Why do you think your business grows so quickly?
Ed: Hey thanks having me on, Arthur. So as you mentioned, we've been doing this since two thousand and fourteen, and we like to describe ourselves as a global social agency with creator instincts.
We started off as creator first, and as we've grown, we really run brands social sort of end to end. But our model for producing the majority of the content is done by creators. Increasingly, we are producing more content ourselves, which creators feature in. That's what we do.
And as you s-said, we work with some incredible global brands, direct to brand, not necessarily through other agencies, but typically alongside other agencies. And our ambition is to become that lead agency partner, helping brands solve their problems to build their businesses. So it's been a really exciting journey.
Been doing it for over ten years now. I can't really believe that. And we're still independent. And I think growth is [00:02:00] like a component of just a very fast-moving sector for all the right reasons. When you think about creators, it's similar to the gig economy. There's been a big shift, and I think that shift will increase with the rise of AI, which gives more independence to individuals.
And so creator marketing has displaced traditional production distribution methods, but let's just focus on the production side of things. By having lots of individuals who now have the technology through software and hardware to produce content, to edit content, and then to distribute it through the social networks.
Whereas traditionally, you would've had a few or few, far fewer production companies that you go to. Now, individuals can do that themselves in different, to different degrees and the teams they have behind them. It could be one person, it could be a hundred people. But it's incredible the diversity of creators we can talk to.
It's the speed at which content can be created now is far faster 'cause there's much more supply. And the type of content audiences expect has changed from being very hi-fi to a complete variety. So I think it's the [00:03:00] production side of things, and we've shifted from that term influencer to creator also probably for that reason.
The real value is in the creation of the content, and then it's how it's distributed. It's distributed through traditional media channels. But social is the key platform
Arthur: And let's say we've got a CEO Coca-Cola listening in.
From on the outside, a lot of these marketing agencies, it's easy to oversimplify what they do, right? There are a lot of services and ways you give value to to
Ed: Yeah
Arthur: So it can quickly, it can actually quickly become a bit confusing. But let's say you, you've got a minute with the CEO, and he's "Okay, what is it that you do that's different or special?"
Ed: Yeah, of course. Traditionally, they would've worked with a creative agency, comes up with a large idea for a television campaign, and then they have other agencies work off the back of that to distribute that, and that message and that idea and that creative platform through other media ch- channels.
Now, however I'd say put me in touch with the CMO, and we will discuss how we can , transform your brand to be a social-led, not TV-led, [00:04:00] social-led brand with creators at the heart of it. That would enable you to talk to audiences in in, in a sort of a modern manner and have a two-way conversation with them.
And our job as a creative marketing is to orchestrate that conversation about you on social, to influence the influencers out there and get them talking about your brand in the shape and manner that we think is right to help you solve whatever business problem you may have
Arthur: I've just been In- India where something like 70% of the population has a mobile phone. So it's interesting landscape to that degree. But when one thinks of these influencers, one thinks of these people who, have very busy lives. And it feels like from the outside as a brand, like h- where do you begin?
You wanna scalably, approach and get as m- as many of the right influencers as possible or the sort of, a collection of just the best and deliver in an effective way. Because that seems to have been your hack as a business, [00:05:00] that you've able to have hacked the helping brands work with influencers at scale
Ed: Yes. Yeah, I think it's, it-- at the, at scale is one component of it. So software and technology is important. So if I look back on the journey of PDB two thousand and fourteen we had two parts to the business. We had the influencer side, which was an idea, and we had a, another part of the business where I really understood the, understood how YouTube as a platform worked, and we were helping TV and s- movie copyright owners monetize their content.
And I mention that because for three years we built both sides, and then we actually sold the YouTube management business, and we reinvested that money back into the influencer business because we noticed, we're like, "This is a real thing." Brands need to be connecting with bloggers, Instagrammers, YouTubers, Vine stars at the time, like a whole array.
And it was our job to help create those connections and then manage that for them. As a new way of creating content about your brand and distributing it to new audiences. So two thousand seventeen, we won a [00:06:00] contract with Garnier, and what that comprises is a strategy which is this is the problem, this is the insight on how we're gonna address that.
That then get, informs a creative team. Creative team develop a creative platform. That creative platform is an umbrella that influences and inspires the creators that we work with. We then engage the right creators to talk to the right audiences and solve the right problems, and those problems aren't necessarily governed by just scale of creator.
You could just choose one creator for a particular reason. You could choose small creators who don't necessarily have an audience yet, but they create the right type of story. And you create those stories, then you amplify that through paid media. It's f- it there's a huge variety of strategies that work today.
So the creative platform acts as the inspirational umbrella. You then brief and inspire creators create stories, and you give them a freedom within a framework. And what's interesting is when we're looking for creatives to join our team. Traditionally, creatives have full control over the output.
But [00:07:00] when working with creators, you don't have full control over the output. Your part of the job is fifty percent of the end output, and your job is to inspire them as to what to create and give them that guidance and then let them do that with a tight brief. So then creators create the stories, they get distributed either through their channels or through other forms of media, which we will buy on behalf of the brands. And that will then lead through to audiences, say the right story, and driving the right action. that really is what we do.
Arthur: And how do you actually reach an influencer? Typically, is it through an agent? And that's how you end up building quite a few relationships quickly?
Ed: Yeah, look it's changing fast, and with the rise of AI we'll see m-more and more change. But we have a fantastic back end to our business called Companion. That's the technology that I mentioned earlier, and that technology supports, as a companion, our team in all the communications and sort of the workflows, the back ends of running these campaigns at scale.
And they use that software to [00:08:00] keep a track of who they're talking to, a little bit like, like a CRM, and they also use it to engage with agents. So the majority of the talent we work with will have agents, I think seventy, seventy-five percent but some will not. So we either reach direct out to the agent or direct to the talent, and we have a lot of creators getting in touch with us too.
So it varies, but it's a team that we'll be communicating with the talent, either through an agent or talent direct
Arthur: And jumping to a bit of a different realm.
Consumers sometimes who have been buying from a brand for years, but the brand has no idea on who they are. They'll know, the metrics on the demographics of , who buys their product.
But they might not have an exact idea necessarily of the name and a relationship with someone who buys their product. So it could be a dishwasher tablet, for example where someone has, generally bought the same brand, but that, that brand has no relationship with that customer.
Is that more and more changing? Are brands getting better at creating relationships with who are their customers in terms of creating [00:09:00] incentives to remain a customer, but also encourage people to get other people they know to purchase items?
Ed: , social, right? Social is a-- that's your c- that's your community. So you're talking to your community through, through social. And increasingly, whether it's through your own social channels or third-party channels like creators like I don't think it's mandatory to have a s- your own social channel anymore.
But you do need your brand to be talked about on social. And you need to manage that, so through social, and maybe another answer to that question, through Companion, we have an incredible partnership and a piece of software which allows us to track consumers' behavior when they go through to retailers.
And retailers don't need to give permission for this. It's like a cookie, and we can see how consumers are reacting on Amazon or on Tesco or something like that. Simply when a consumer clicks on a link, and they give permission for you to track that, we see if they're adding to basket, if they're purchasing, if they're going to other pages.
And that is a really good way of getting around waiting for retailers to share back that data.
. The key is it's social community. That is their [00:10:00] audience. Those are their consumers
Arthur: it's quite an abstract question which I was getting at more like, maybe having QR codes on items which if you scan, you can have access to discounts or,
Ed: Oh yeah, we've
Arthur: in some way and
Ed: Yeah, like years ago, we created a a cookery book. All the recipes were generated by creators, and that cookery book was digital, and it was accessible via QR code on Quaker's, Quaker, a pack of Quaker Oats. So by buying Quaker Oats, you could then get this free cookery book to teach you how to use oats to create, I think it was like a hundred different recipes, and they were great.
And with separately, we had all the creators also publishing those recipes on their own social channels, et cetera, and the audiences were engaging with that. And then we had new ideas for new recipes based on comments, generated new ones. Those were added to the cookbook and more.
Arthur: Are there some campaigns that have been particularly striking in how successful they've been that are quite abstract?
Ed: Yeah, two great examples of that is so over the last two years we've been working with Lipton and we've take-taken them from the twenty-first most talked about brand on social to the [00:11:00] fourth globally. We work them across multiple markets around the world, and we are their global agency of record.
And we have what we call social hubs. So we have teams of creators on contracts where they're contracted not just to produce deliverables, but actually contracted for time as well to look for insights on social, present creative ideas that then we would sign off on. So we have creators, producers, strategists in-market, and then they go through to a global team based here out of the UK.
But we're managing multiple markets with this system and this setup. And what that's done is really helped Lipton to react quickly to trends on social and generate ideas and assets immediately, not through traditional production teams in-house, which is what social agencies have. We do it through outsourced creator model, the heart of our business.
And what's also great is those creators that are working to do this have a much better understanding of what's going on social than you would have traditionally with your social teams in-house. So that has worked [00:12:00] incredibly well as a global to local model, because what you'll find is global teams quite often want to have influence and orchestrate what's happening locally, but they will produce assets at a global level and then distribute it down to local markets.
And what they'll-- you'll find is the local markets are like, "This, these assets just aren't appropriate." Here instead, we have a mechanic where local markets are given guidance and like a toolkit explaining what to do, and then they work with creators to bring that to life locally. We then also see local insights coming through from, let's say, the Turkish market, which will then go back up to global and then inspire and give us ideas that we can then distribute to other markets.
So it's like it goes in both directions. This has worked unbelievably well for Lipton. Now, that's more of like a, I'd say an operationally well-- very well-organized model to sov-solve a global to local challenge, which many global brands really struggle with. So finally, there is a [00:13:00] solution out there which works incredibly well.
Separately, and I think this is perhaps more interesting to you Arthur, is we've been working with Argos here in the UK, and we've been helping s-consumers understand that you can go to Argos, yes, to buy, affordable products, which is what I think people would typically think of Argos as a retailer for your home at quite, quite an affordable level.
But they also have some really premium very high-value products that they sell there. . And we didn't want to alien-enate the audience, we wanted to make them aware of this too. So we came up with a concept called Arg Haus, which is a fictional, like mockumentary. It's a mockumentary.
All the s- and it's episodic content series that lives on their social channels. And so all the content is produced by Billion Dollar Boy. It features creators. It's co-scripted and co-written by BDB with creators, and it's proven to be a real success. And so what we do is we release episodes, we see how fans and audiences react to it, and [00:14:00] based off of that commentary and that response, as we then create new episodes, it's heavily influenced by that reaction.
So we saw that when we released the first few episodes last year, that people really liked one of the characters, which was the art gallery's intern. And . sorry, let me explain. It's an art gallery, and the pieces of art are those high-value product pieces that you'd be able to purchase in Argos.
It's called Arg Haus with a little tilde above the U. And you should check it out. But yeah, as I mentioned, We, we produced and released these first few episodes on social, and the intern, the art gallery intern, was very well received. And so the next episode was all about the intern's time there and her perspective on working in this art gallery.
We've had major celebrities get in touch saying, "Hey, how can we feature and be a part of this?" We've just had Douglas Booth at... Douglas Booth in a recent episode. So I think what we're seeing there is, like entertainment, and I've always believed this, is absolutely key now for brands. You have to be offering value [00:15:00] to your audiences, otherwise why would they bother coming to your channels?
And Red Bull's a perfect example of that. So what we're trying to encourage is our partners to be investing to create content that consumers actually really want to watch and stick around for in the future.
Arthur: , Fascinating. Consumers are spoilt for choice on what they can see which really... I feel like the, the bar is only going up for brands to, to deliver e-exciting content to, to people. What other learnings do you have? And maybe you've got some bold convictions or things that you feel are true, but maybe the data's not quite there yet around how to make content that really works or influence people online.
Ed: there's many different things that matters, but we actually, interestingly, we ran an analysis of five thousand creator-led assets recently at BDB across all of our work from the US and UK, and it looked at four core performance drivers.
And what we found were, like, three key things [00:16:00] that came from it, that frontloading your pitch within your content can kill the reach of that content. So leading with the product directly, which is what the advice always was previously by the platforms like Meta, et cetera. If you lead with that direct product sell, it drops the view rates, significantly by about forty percent plus.
So don't lead with direct product sell, but hook first and then get the payoff to come later. So it's important to create a narrative that intrigues, and intrigues the brand moment as the big payoff, but don't make that the setup. So you need to build intrigue at the beginning through a hook, and then the payoff comes later once the audience is engaged with that piece of content.
And so content that fails to build that anticipation for that moment also sees favorability drop and consideration drop quite significantly, again, forty percent plus. And then the final thing is also the end of that content really matters, and finishing with a peak of strong positive [00:17:00] emotion makes a big positive difference.
And then people wanna come back to this, and we've noticed that working really well. So don't lead with product, lead with intrigue, payoff, and moment later on once consumers are engaged. And the hook matters, but it matters just as much as the end, too
Arthur: Really?
Ed: Yeah. So who would've thought? There we go. It was intriguing
Arthur: Yeah. A hooks when you get asked, "Oh give me some good ideas for a hook," a hook for listeners, first three seconds of a reel or a bit of content, it's really critical in whether or not people are not,
Ed: s- like you've...
Arthur: to it or watching it
Ed: Yeah, I saw an amazing music video recently where it's filmed on a New York subway, and the creator drops a phone, and the phone breaks, and that, that is the hook and the intrigue. And then as he picks it up, it turns into a music video, and by this stage you're already intrigued "What's gonna happen next?"
So it's that key thing is intrigue in those, in that first moment to get people engaged with it, and then [00:18:00] you create the sort of sell the product brand moment later on.
Arthur: It's a funny art. D- do you think that there's a good Bible a, a good book or a b- a book on this? People often
talk about
Ed: I think that's it, Arthur. I think those three points are the key things. Don't load the product up front. Create the intrigue. Have the brand payoff moment during the content once audience engaged, and make sure to finish with a big positive reinforcing moment to bring people back.
That is gonna work really well for your brand
Arthur: Have there been times when you've seen campaigns where, , things have worked in a very surprising way?
Ed: It's when the hardest, the biggest challenges always end up being the campaigns that pay off the most. The ones which feel the hardest, the ones which deadlines are tight, the idea feels impossible to conceive, but you're like, "We can do this." And people find those really challenging in the moment, but the payoff afterwards is always the greatest.
Arthur: Have there been some campaigns that have gone viral that you're really proud of
Ed: i'm [00:19:00] always surprised by which campaigns go viral, to be honest. Sometimes it's very unexpected that, and it's quite hard to plan for virality. We worked on an incredible campaign with Ikea and Chupa Chups. It was an April Fool's collaboration creating a meatball-flavored lollipop, and that was an unbelievable success.
And I guess when you think about it, Arthur, if Ikea, and they're famous for their meatballs, and you think Chupa Chups, the most and globally recognized lollipops out there. It just provoked a very visceral cultural conversation, and it was perfect for creators. So that really took off.
actually going back to Lipton we worked with a fantastic creator called Hugo Philip . he's French, and runs a streetwear label called Cool Pancake. This is an example of the type of work we do with him alongside that sort of the social hub's always-on model.
We launched a limited ed-edition, clothing collection. Now, that's not necessarily something you'd associate with Lipton, but what Lipton is doing is injecting itself into culture. And we had a Paris pop-up, and - it basically just seamlessly fused [00:20:00] Lipton with Cool Pan-Pancakes. They had these '90s-inspired designs.
That was like seventy-six million organic impressions were generated off the back of this and I think it had two point four million euros of sales by this specific campaign. So that I think we were very proud of, and a-again, I can share this content with you if you should look it up, Arthur.
So that was a Lipton Cool Pancake and that, that did really
Arthur: speaking of collaboration, there are so many examples of how brands associate themselves with amazing pieces of culture or even what's happening in the world. Certain brands are quite bold about how they can link themselves to certain news articles, for example.
Ed: Sure
Arthur: At times it must be frustrating seeing brands that should be working together that don't.
How is it, for you as someone who's trying to deliver as much value as possible to these brands in trying to encourage this collaboration in a world where people are quickly hit for, missing an insensitive message or, or, upsetting people?
Ed: We [00:21:00] are encouraging the brands we work with to, is to collaborate as much as possible with creators and bring them further upstream in the planning moments. And I think what we're seeing is creators having a huge amount of success in building their own businesses, and there are lots of lessons that brands can take from that.
Quite often they're looking and finding social insights, and based off those social insights and opportunities, they're then building business off the back of that. And A creator I've always been re-really inspired by, was Thomas Straker.
Who's a UK-based chef and was a private chef and had aspirations to start his own restaurant, and then during COVID started creating his own social content. Off the back of that, he does now have a successful restaurant in London, is about to open one in New York. But the thing I'm really interested by is his most viral sort of content was his butter series, where he showed you different ways of creating different flavored butter.
And off the back of that, he then produces his own butter line called All Things Butter. And for all intents and purposes, that business has been a big success for him. So I think what we saw there was [00:22:00] creator creates content, sees what's working well, notices there's an opportunity in the market to create something new, builds his own product goes live, and it's a big success.
So I think, like I saw Trip, the drinks brand, just partner with Kendall Jenner, who's made a minority investment of some sort. I just think partnering with the right personalities and the right celebrities or creators to amplify your brand is really key. But you really wanna find that authentic connection and collaboration.
And ultimately, If there's a marketing platform already generated, like- I think you may have missed a trick. So actually trying to get creators into the room as early as possible will really make a big difference. One of the things we now do is bring brands closer to creators, and the way we do that is through a community business we've been building called FiveToNine. So within the BDB group, we have this BDB group that owns our agency business, which we have a very successful agency in the UK and the US.
We have Companion, the software, which underpins and backs up everything we do within the agency. We also license to third parties. We 80 or so paying [00:23:00] customers of that business. It's launching a very in-interesting share of voice tool right now. And then thirdly, we have FiveToNine.
So we basically have agency, technology, and community. FiveToNine was a way for us to give back to all the creators we work with , on the agency side of the business, all of our suppliers. It was to bring our team, our business, our strategy, and our brands, most importantly, closer to creators 'cause we know that when they're in-- when you're in a room with them together, the light bulbs go off.
And so one of the things we do through that community is we're helping those creators build their businesses and careers by working with partners to educate and inform them on how to do that, whether that's through tax planning, brand planning, whatever that may be, like contracts, how to write contracts.
And and access to just industry moments and introductions. But the reason this is relevant to Go Match Collaboration is we now have something called FiveToNine Labs, which basically is where we bring creators into a room with brands early on to talk about their plans for the year ahead, to [00:24:00] talk about the strategy which they may have formulated, and give them guidance on whether that's gonna work on social and whether that will resonate with creators and the creators' audiences.
That is a really great way of getting those insights early on and updating that strategy.
Arthur: Yeah. And, media's always changing in both on the tech side but also what people expect and want to see. , In many senses, influencers and creators are, very isolated doing their work. So when you meet the influencers saying, "Oh, how do I grow quickly?"
What are the learnings you have for that?
Ed: Sign up to Five29.
Arthur: So
Ed: It's the biggest, it's the lo- it's the world's largest community of creators. It's four to five thousand creators now across the UK and US predominantly. We have incredible moments. We just launched something called the Impact List, which is celebrating not the biggest creators, it's not based on follower count, it's the most impactful up-and-coming creators.
We also have something called the Creator Fund, where we bring creators to big industry moments and we organize their itinerary and [00:25:00] Access and open doors for them when they go to Cannes, South by Southwest, those types of moments. So if you wanna learn how to build your business and/or your career, and by career I guess that I'm thinking more just brand-based deals, Five29 is the community to join.
I know from experience having built BDB as an entrepreneur, that having like-minded individuals around you is absolutely key as you go through the pitfalls and the challenges of building a business. It's great to meet other people who are experiencing that and share in those moments, so you have community to support you as you work through those.
Arthur: looking forward for the business, you've been growing so quickly. We know how the world's changing with AI with lots of voices telling us about the, the good and the great and the nerve-wracking around that. What are you pumped for in the future for what you're doing?
Ed: Look, fundamentally, I love the business component of what we do, and what I can see is that for brands and the clients we work with, there is a massive [00:26:00] transformation hap-happening right now. Brands are moving to social-led campaigns and social-led marketing. That will not decrease. That will only increase and accelerate.
Behind all of that, creators are the core component for generating the content. That dissemination of your brand through creators and these key voices online is essential. It's faster, quicker, it's more diverse, and ultimately more effective. AI is only gonna accelerate that.
It gives more power to the individual, you will increasingly see this becoming more and more relevant. For me, it's just maintaining building this group making sure we have the right capabilities to support the brands as new and emerging areas of opportunity ari-arise on social, whether that be live shopping, whether that be LinkedIn influencer marketing.
There are many opportunities out there, and we just wanna make sure we have the right suite of solutions for our brand partners.
Arthur: And the way in which people make money from promoting brands, is that changing? Micro, micro [00:27:00] influencers, are we seeing how they're rewarded being improved?
Ed: Is it changing? Yeah, it's changing in m-- Look, it's changing in many different ways, but the same fundamental principles still are there. It's like what is the value that creator can provide to the brand and what is a brand or, an agency on behalf of a brand willing to pay for it?
So that's through a brand deal. But as I mentioned, like it could be a collaboration in designing and building a product together. That's could have a completely different structure where you could have an equity-based structure or s-sales referral, commission-based structure involved in that.
The brands who will do the best are the ones leaning in, getting closer to creators through communities like FiveToNine, understanding what's going on in that space, and being entrepreneurial and coming up with new ways to work with them and trying new things. There is a big advantage having a first-mover advantage, but it can also be quite scary.
So you gotta try, and you gotta be you gotta be creative to look for those new solutions.
Arthur: Doing what you're doing at the moment what do you feel is the biggest privilege?
Ed: I get a huge amount of satisfaction from seeing our team being engaged and excited [00:28:00]about what we're doing. That team is made up of the clients, the team that work internally, and the creators and suppliers that we work with. The thing that stops me from sleeping at night is dissatisfaction in different areas.
And sometimes you have to ignore it because - you can't solve certain things. But as I think we all know you want people to be excited work every day and helping you try to grow something exciting.
So a lot of joy just comes through trying to build those infrastructures and those, those shared values and a mission that people will get excited by.
Arthur: Being human, being an entrepreneur, there's ups and downs as we know. Reflecting on that, what do you feel are the key ways of pushing through the challenges?
Ed: I like this concept of what I describe as sensible risk. And by sensible risk, I mean you have to take risk, but you should be managing the downside of that risk. And so I think taking risk is key. But for me, I don't think you need to place all [00:29:00] your chips on one bet. Having like-minded community around you as you work through those challenges is really useful, and will make those challenging moments far easier to deal with. If you looked at a graph, there is no straight line to success.
It takes time. Take it day by day. And ultimately what we're doing is solving problems every day. And so those problems become part and parcel of what you do, and you have to have a mindset that realizes those problems will arise and you have to deal with them. If you get stressed out by those problems, it's gonna be hard to enjoy that every day.
But actually, your challenge is to solve those problems. So going back to that graph, it's quite a squiggly path to get to where you want to get to, and I think it's great to have a plan. Plans really matter. But accept that is gonna shift as you make your way. So it's actually better to have a direction that you wanna head in and try and work towards that direction.
How you get there is gonna shift.
Arthur: Celebrating failure, many campaigns don't work that well. , Do, do you as a business, are you quite good at really analyzing , it's all well investigating the [00:30:00] wins, but do you investigate what, what isn't working and critique that as well?
Ed: Yeah. I think actually, to be honest, I think quite often I think we as a business and other business may... I think quite often you spend too much time looking at what's going wrong and trying to figure out how to fix that versus actually what would be better is like what's going right and how do we do more of that.
So part of the shift and something I'd love to do I'm now back here in the UK having been living in the US for four years. And I, the US was a real challenge in year one, but now it really has been the best thing I've ever done, and I have to be incredibly proud of what the team pulled off there.
We have a very successful US business. It's probably the fastest-growing social-led influencer agency in the US. We won Ad Age and Adweek Social Influencer Agency of the Year just this year, which was a massive testament to all the progress we've made. There's so much that we're doing right there. I'd almost prefer our team to focus on that, 'cause otherwise all you can do is get in a quagmire of just talking about what's going wrong, how do we make that better. Those things, those little fixes that you can make to make things a bit better [00:31:00] are probably not the big opportunity.
I think you need to like accept sometimes where you've got something to a certain level and actually look for what's the thing that's really gonna make a bigger difference. And those things you may spot by focusing on, hey, what's going well? Let's do more of that.
It's a bit of a mindset shift there. We haven't successfully done it yet, Arthur, but I do think that is a, a really interesting way of approaching that question.
Arthur: Edward, you so much for your time. It's been really interesting learning from you and getting a flavor on the types of challenges brands have i-in terms of capturing people's attention, but how clever it is that, some of the solutions that people like you have to these brands and help us see content in a really exciting way
Ed: Thanks a lot, Arthur
