Pandora: welcome to this episode of Pitching Passion. Today we have Pandora Morris, who has so much to share around all things mental health. has a background as a lawyer is a mental health expert, set up Hurt to Healing, a podcast that she founded in 2022, which is a podcast that has inspired people around the areas of mental health, interviewing experts who have shared their own journeys, amazing insights, and has really come from building a place that, Pandora you've wished it, it has been there for you back in the day,
You've got this mission to really help people out from all the learnings that that you've gone and had, really exciting podcast to check out with amazing action- a- actionable take- takeaways around the area of mental health.
So she's had Ruby Wax, Professor Ian Hickie. Spence Matthews, Joanna Lumley neuroscientists, and some bloke called James Haskell. No, that's the former England rugby player, what a journey that's brought you on in terms of being able to learn about people.
Anything we do in [00:01:00] life is such an opportunity to learn about ourselves and the world. Going on this journey, what's it taught you about yourself? About myself, that I'm not alone. When I started the podcast, I thought that by sharing, the intricacies of my mind and what went on for me was going to make me feel like I was this pariah and this freak show.
And the more conversations I have, the more that I just realize that the human brain is so fascinating in how it works and how it works so differently in everyone, and we can find crossover and overlap. But ultimately, none of us are ever alone in our struggles. But actually finding the beauty in the pain, as it were, is sometimes like a...
And when I'm in a real rut and I think, "Oh, God, I'm frustrated. Why does my brain work like this?" It's actually sometimes reframing it as my brain just works in a slightly different way. It doesn't mean that I'm weird. It doesn't mean I'm broken. It doesn't mean that I'm unfixable or this, this thing that needs to be [00:02:00] fixed, but actually it's learning how to manage it and work around it so that it doesn't rule my life, which at times it obviously has.
And was also made me realize the importance of connection, and actually connecting with people is something that, for me is just my absolute oxygen on a daily basis. You're so lucky to have been able to turn, the challenges that we all go into, that you've had along the way, into such an opportunity which has such great purpose it's so interesting how you talk around, how, so reminds you that we all have these things going on.
We're all in it together, just this endless like tapestry of life that we can learn from. It must surprise you the whole time about, the nuggets that you learn from people. This shirt bizarrely says we're not alone, so it's a nice little message- ... of today. But you, you touched on that, how people are different And it's impossible.
I think, in the e- era of AI, obviously there's so much we have to know about the world. We have no idea what we don't know, right? And that's true in so many different [00:03:00] fields. But one field which is so fascinating is what people... what's going through their mind, like, how they operate, how they process information.
People respond to it differently, to di- different comments. And of course they do, but it's so hard to really see that. Talk to us a bit about that and your learnings around how people are different. Yeah. It's an interesting one, isn't it? As I embark on this whole dating conveyor belt, I realize that, everyone brings something different to the party, and I think it's so interesting how, in some ways we're all very similar and we all want that sense of purpose.
We all want to achieve. We all want to be loved. We all want to s- feel that sense of connectedness. But some of us have just got a bit lost along the way, and some of us have a much louder inner critic than others, and I'm constantly trying to remind myself, we can't compare ourself to where someone else is at.
I'm at a stage where most of my friends are now married and a lot of them have children, I've been on a very different journey to the majority of them, and it's saying, "Actually, it's okay not to be on that [00:04:00] journey and not to be at the same point as all of them," because we're all unique and we're all different, and I think that sometimes we have to celebrate in our differences because I think the human race would be unbelievably boring if we were all the same.
And as we were talking about before this podcast, life has its ups and its downs, and I think particularly when you work for yourself and, you're a business founder and you're always having to motivate yourself and you've got people working with you but, you're ultimately the one that the sort of the buck lands with, it can sometimes be Yeah, it can sometimes be really tough, and you've, you sit, and if you're an over-thinker, you can sometimes wallow in your over-thinking brain and mind.
And it's actually, I'm interviewing with a woman next week called Jessamy Hibbard. She's written a book called Overthinking, and she describes this analogy as, you're standing on a stage, and there's a spotlight, and we can either really focus on all our negative thoughts and that sense of I'm not enough, I'm not doing well, or we can actually change the spotlight into the positive parts of ourselves, which we all have, but we tend not to focus on because of the ne- [00:05:00] negativity bias that happens in the brain, right?
We always focus on what's not going well, what we haven't achieved, because ultimately, that's been a survival strategy for years. That's how man has survived. And so as an evolutionary sort of tactic, the brain will always go to the negative before it goes to the positive, and it's actually learning to reframe that and be like what's going right?
What am I good at? What do people tell me and give me positive feedback for?" And I think one of my main learnings this year is about how we deal with that sense of doubt because ultimately, which I'm sure we'll come on to talk about, with OCD, when you struggle with OCD, you are crippled by doubt, and at times it can become so paralyzing.
And I think one of the main things that I've really discovered is sometimes you need people around you to cheerlead you on and to believe in yours- in you before you can believe in yourself. And you do need that buffer of people, and I've been very lucky in, in finding some of those individuals, and I'm very very grateful.
[00:06:00] Yeah. So many amazing pieces there. And Pandora, what's so clear, as someone who sits next to you, is just how much you have to give to the world through your endless conversations you've had through people, your passion, and also, the tough parts. Let's face it, you speak to a, you speak to a grounded entrepreneur, whoever it is, anyone who's pursued anything, and their learnings so much have come through the times where things haven't gone well, as well as the successes, right?
And it's interesting how we do struggle as a society to be vulnerable with each other because it's just not the natural preset. But you sometimes, when one meets particularly level, successful people, you... They are very clever and open about that in a in a very collaborative way.
And so interesting you talk around that concept 'cause the world doesn't have this weird concept where you can feel you're on your own island, right? And there's very quick ways to make that gap between you and people dissolve. But everyone has got things on their plate, right?
And people [00:07:00] have so much to worry about for their own things, so they're not really concerned about what's going on in your world. What traits- Have you seen from people that you really rate and look up to
whenever I'm with someone who has that deep level of empathy, I'm struck by just how much more connected one can feel to them. And I think sometimes people get so caught up in, the pace at which life moves now, particularly with phones and AI, and everyone's onto the next thing, onto the next thing, onto the next thing.
And I think when someone pauses and stops, and really takes the time to be present with you, for me, that fosters such a deep connection, but also that feeling of really truly seeing the other person. And I think sometimes, as people, we don't necessarily, we don't see other people for really who they are and what they are.
Because ultimately, we are all wearing masks a lot of the time- ... because we want to project a certain image. We want to appear to be confident when, in fact, [00:08:00] inside we're s- spiraling into that sense of shame or judgment. Even I met a guy in the gym, and I'm there thinking, "Oh, my God, he thinks I'm a weirdo.
He thinks I'm, like, pushing myself in the gym. Here I am. Oh, God, look, my, my gym outfit's not good enough." I'm looking- ... at all the other women, comparing myself to them. And ultimately, it's also that sense of self-assuredness the, and that self-confidence in just being you. I really try and show up as myself as an authentic way as I possibly can.
And when I see that in someone else, I really admire it. Because I once had a friend who said, I love you for you. I don't really care about some of your quirkier behaviors or habits, because ultimately it's the essence of you." And sometimes it's reminding people that, you're there because you treasure them, and you really value them as a person.
We can get so caught up into thinking, "Oh, my God, I need to project this or that." And people who make you feel safe and confident enough to do that, are just real diamonds in the rough, as it were. Sometimes having a purpose can have, huge impact in terms of our ability to impact things, whether it be in a [00:09:00] role or a company or, a family, a partner. What are the things you've seen that can really help people dial up in p- terms of being able to contribute?
You need to discover what that purpose is. By and large, I used to be on the spin bike in the gym, and I still do this thinking, "Oh my God." I was listening... I would be listening to a podcast, whether it be Steven Bartlett or Chris Williamson or Mel Robbins and they'd be like, the only time you change is when the pain of staying the same starts to outweigh the pain of actually stepping into the new you and the new version of yourself and taking the plunge into the unknown," which we all find unbelievably daunting.
And I think sometimes to find that purpose, you need to tap into that pain. And sometimes, if you talk to many founders and individuals who have really struggled, they'll turn that struggle and that suffering into something great. And it's funny, Chris Williamson actually said this the other day.
He was like, "The thing that causes you the most pain in life will be the thing that you're most admired for on the outside." And time again, I just [00:10:00] observe it in other people, and it's so true because often, like internally we'll be berating ourselves for something that we... being overly perfectionistic, being too beholden to a routine.
You're g- not putting ourselves out there enough. And other people, we're like, "God, they're so disciplined. They're so motivated. I wish I had more of that. I wish I had that ability to be completely rigid about what I do and how I do it, and controlled about, X, Y, and Z." And ultimately I think, it's a tricky one, isn't it?
Because we all often want what other people have, and we - we search for that in so many different ways. But igniting that sense of purpose for me, yeah, has come from that place of suffering and what could I actually give to the world what I wish I had when I was growing up, as you said. Have there been moments recently where you've been in a conversation or it's like a old friend that you have, and you've seen something in them where you're like, "I've just seen..." Maybe it's a behavior, a comment or their approach to something that you're like, "I read that. That's something that needs to be emulated more."
Yeah. For example, in our [00:11:00] conversation earlier with you, I, your ability to just say, "I'm going off to New York and I'm just gonna see what happens," or I just went off, and I took myself alone to Greece and I went kite surfing for a week. I admire spontaneity in people and the ability to just go in with n- not really much expectation, but just putting themselves out there.
And I'm trying to do that in a way for myself that I find palatable and manageable. But I love the fact that people just can be so free because that's the thing quite often when you have something like OCD which really keeps you in this mental sort of an internal cage as it were, because, you have to do X, Y, and Z because you feel like if you don't, then the whole world's going to implode.
And obviously I'm beyond knowing... I know that's not the case, but it still keeps me slightly in it, shackles- ... to a degree. And I hope in five years time I will just be like, if someone says, "Let's go to Greece next week," it's just like- Yeah ... "Yeah, great." What I'm learning is that actually if I feel safe enough with the person and they say, "Let's do this," I can actually now say, [00:12:00] "Okay, yeah, let's do it."
Yeah. I don't know if you relate to this in how to you, but it's one that I've slightly kind of feel linked to. You've got the whole analogy which we always hear, which is like you just keep, keep on going. Great people push that, and things do take time.
Slightly like we, f- people who, you know, attention spans, expectations, our horizon that we look into, be it sometimes our mission, our goal, things we want, it, it can just be quite short-term thinking sometimes and, maybe that is a big product of our environment.
But do you feel part of life is like riding a bike, keep on going, but almost not, holding the handlebars too tightly? Let you know, letting, let, letting things go. 'Cause when you start to force things, and that pressure of performing every day in a certain way.
we're not machines, and you do have to slightly go with the flow a bit. Does that relate to you? What are your thoughts? Yeah, no, ... I like that analogy. I think when you hold on too tightly, suddenly the color really saps out of life very quickly [00:13:00] because you become so rigid and you don't see the offerings that the universe has.
Often now I say to myself, "You know what? The universe will just give you a sign." There's a decision that I'm wrestling with, and I'll be, I'm just gonna wait for that sign, and someone might send a message, someone might say something that just sparks that idea. I might You know, I g- it, it's just these quirky little things that happen, and I think if you're holding onto those bicycle handlebars- too tightly, you fail to see them. And for so long I had my head down. I was just in this absolute, straightjacket, and if I didn't do what I needed to do in a day, it was an absolute disaster. Whereas you really notice that actually when you start to just loosen the grip a bit, the excitement comes back into life.
And suddenly, okay, 90% of the time you might like to be beholden to a bit more of a routine and a structure and be on that bike holding the handlebars, but then the other 10% of the time, it's just so amazingly liberating to just let go of the handlebars and see what happens. And it's scary, but the more you do it, [00:14:00] the more you start to realize "Okay, that's okay," because 90% of the time I can still do what makes me feel safe and what anchors me.
And then the other 10%, I can just see where it goes. And some people have the ability to hold onto the handlebars 50% of the time and to just let go 50% of the time, it's different for everyone, and you have to know yourself. And particularly with age, there's this old thing youth is wasted on the young particularly with women, it's often that thing of, you look, there's this idea in society anyway that as you get older and you age, women freak out that they're becoming less attractive.
But actually, you grow so much in wisdom and self-confidence because you start to know yourself a lot better. And I'm definitely experiencing that slight shift of actually, really enjoying getting to know myself and actually who I am and what makes me tick. So beautiful, that.
It's really nice.
So Pandora You've reached millions of people in a subject that is tender it's a subject with mental health, there's so many shades [00:15:00] and, that fits in people's life in such different ways. What are the moments that have been clear for you, where you've helped people?
And this isn't a time to be British. . What you're doing serves as such an amazing example of how we can be there for others. And actually, we need to be. We're designed as people to be there for each other. You look at anything that's been built of a huge value, it's people have had each other's backs to help make that happen.
It's only and always will be a team effort. But please share, because it is moving and amazing what you do and how you are changing people's lives, whether it be making them actually get out of bed within those three minutes or, viewing something differently. There'll be countless examples, comments and moments that it will have hit you.
Please can you share that? I love the very un-British side of the, yeah, of the question. Yeah, I remember one of my first friends actually, and she [00:16:00] wasn't a really close friend at the time, and she said, "You just thank you so much for helping me understand the way that my mind works, because I never really realized what was going on.
And actually, in you sharing it, it's given me the courage and the confidence , to realize that maybe I'm just, I'm not so broken, and I'm not such an outcast, and the way my mind works isn't just so abnormal and weird." Because I think, this is a l- a lot of the comments and feedback I get from people is just "Thank you for making me feel less alone."
Because I think when you have all these intrusive thoughts, and particularly when you're spiraling alone and let's be honest, anyone with a mental health struggle tends to hibernate, and they tend to, retreat into themselves, and, that sense of feeling connected really dissolves very quickly.
And in trying to create a bit of a community and in making people feel less alone that gives me huge comfort. And a lot of parents actually who, will often say I never really understood the way that, Emily's mind worked, and you've just given me so much clarity, and thank you, because [00:17:00] we've been at loggerheads for years.
And, we couldn't stop arguing because I just couldn't understand, like, why she was behaving the way she did, why she couldn't express what was going on, and you've really given me that clarity." And talking to girls, particularly ones with eating disorders, who say, like- I remember one of the first ones that came up to me, and she recognized my voice, and it was quite a weird moment.
And she said, "You're not the host of the Hurts to Healing Podcast, are you?" And I said, "Yeah, I am." And she said, "God, you really got me through treatment, and I've just come out. And your podcast was just, the most amazing thing to listen to because it was so inspiring having someone who was a bit further on and knowing that this wasn't it forever."
'Cause I think, so often, and particularly with, pretty chronic mental health issues, you feel that this is just how it's gonna be and this is just where you've got to sit. And I think in life, this is a lesson that I'm constantly reminding myself of, too. We're never the same person.
We don't stay the same. You can reach these plateaus, and you can stay there for a while, but we're always evolving. We're always works in progress. And [00:18:00] having other people to look to as those, whether they're, I don't wanna say idols, but just barometers of change and evidence that people do change and people do evolve
And y- we, and we talked about it earlier, y- this analogy of the spotlight and, how there's always gonna be different things happening and, two things can be true. A woman I interviewed on the podcast talked about this thing of like conflict and how we can be conflicted about wanting two things, and I think in reality with many things about the world, there's different things can be true at the same time, Ryan. You do need to channel one's narrative to be like, "Wow, I am this 'cause these things are true," and just slightly try to leave the fear behind. And guess what? The most successful people have also had those, really horrible messages that are coming from yourself. So it's interesting how people are connected in having these different narratives. So on the opposite of this end from fear is, this like deeply empathetic, supportive, loving, character that is somewhere in, [00:19:00] in us all, which we need to use and embed ourselves with love For listeners listening, maybe they're driving, they're like, "Oh, leave us alone.
I don't want any of this today." But actually maybe there'll be a moment where they do maybe, they do want to hear this. Are there two or three messages that have been impactful to you I love the Oscar Wilde quote, "Be yourself because everyone else is taken." Sometimes we want to fit into a mold, and we want to prove to people around us and prove to ourselves that we can do really hard things and that we can become this person that maybe comes from an inner child place and comes from a protector or a vulnerable part of ourselves.
And I sometimes think actually, just, try and tap into, what am I actually good at, but what also suits me and my lifestyle? Because I was interviewing this great mental health advocate. Called Ellie Middleton. She has pretty severe autism, she's about to start writing her third book in the space of something extraordinary, [00:20:00] like a year and a half.
And we were talking about careers, and I said, "Oh, gosh, do you ever feel like, what if I pursued this career path? What if I pursued that career path?" And she said, "Yeah, it's something I really wrestled with because I always wanted to be a Bluepe- Peter presenter. But it's only recently that I've sat down and said to myself, 'Ellie, think of you as a person, and how compatible that would be with the way that your mind works.
It would mean commuting on a train where, people with autism really struggle with loud noises and, changes of routine. And it would mean someone, in your ear while you're doing an interview, so talking to you at the same time. It would mean the constant, levels of uncertainty.'"
And actually, that, that is not who you are. And I think sometimes our goals and aspirations don't necessarily feed into who we are as people, and we forget the person that's pursuing those goals and aspirations. And yeah, there's part of me that would really love to be running my own radio show, and a [00:21:00] TV presenter, and writing books, and hosting the podcast still, and hosting live events for the community.
But ultimately, there is only one of me, and I also have to look after myself. And so it's just sometimes sitting back, and then I get these moments where I'm like, "Oh my God, maybe I should have gone into finance. Maybe I should have pursued my career as a lawyer, and maybe I..." And you're like, "No, I wasn't that corporate animal.
I tried that, and that wasn't for me." So then I shut that down. But it's also tapping into that jealousy, sometimes- ... that we feel towards people who are doing stuff that we're like, "Actually I really wanna do that." And that's what spurred me on to start the podcast, is because I had a couple of friends who had podcasts, and I was like, "You know what?
I really wanna do that." And it's when you get that itch, because you really know that you wanna be doing something, and you know that you potentially could do something that someone else is doing. And I think it's separating out that from those unrealistic goals and expectations. So that's something I would say.
And then I think also, you knowing what down regulates you and what actually gives you that inner sense of calm and safety, because I [00:22:00] think a lot of us, again, we get so caught up on that treadmill and feeling that need to achieve, feeling that need to just go, and we get on this hamster wheel, and then suddenly you're like, "God, I'm just m- I'm frazzled.
I've reached that point of complete burnout." And really getting those anchors in your day on a daily basis that really just let you just calm, sit. And that might just be having... I love having dinner by myself and reading, and sometimes it's being able to say to people, I am free tonight, but actually I'm not free 'cause I'm having dinner by myself- and I need that to read and have a bath- ... and go to bed early." And I think having the courage and the confidence to do that says a lot about a person , when you talk about anchors, what are some of the practices that you really rate that may be hobby based or a daily ritual, that gives more than it sounds"?
Definitely I find, having dinner alone, having an early dinner at home, being able to read. I have a real, the guilty pleasure of magazines. I love sitting down, having a dinner with a magazine, Not having [00:23:00] a deadline and just being able to just feel very calm. I love having a good box set on the go, something that sort of, you know, a bit of escapism.
And that definitely just yeah, just helps me not get too consumed by my thoughts. Always having a bath before bed. That's my absolute thing. What- whatever time it is, wherever I've been I always have a bath because it just, for me, before bed I read in the bath, and it just lets me have that pause before bed.
And, the old adage now spoken about, but just not looking at my phone an hour before bed because I know, and sometimes I'm bad, and I do, and I'm, like, tempted, but then I have a crap night's sleep. But I really just try and put my phone on the side before my bath, and that's it. No more phone.
Have the bath read a bit more in bed. And, consistency of trying to wake up and go to bed at the same time, within obviously- ... like an hour. But that, for me, really helps. You talked about the universe earlier. Tell us about [00:24:00] that. The universe has this extraordinary way of giving you what you need when you need it and keep teaching you the same lesson until you decide to learn from that lesson.
I have experienced this time and time again and continue to experience it on on certain levels. I know a lot of the areas where the universe will keep teaching me the same lesson until I decide to really change my behaviors once and for all. And it can nudge you in the direction, but it will still keep throwing things in your path until you fully actually decide to drop the rope, as it were.
And I also think the universe has an extraordinary way of just giving you signs about, what you're meant to be doing and when. And if you really tap into that, you'll just ... - weird things will happen. People will invite you to something or someone will m- you know, as I said before, someone will send you a message or just something will be canceled, which then opens up an avenue for you to be like, "Okay, I'm actually gonna go to that other thing that I was invited to," or a speaking event will come up and someone will then invite you to stay where the speaking event's [00:25:00] happening.
So it's yeah, that is meant to be. And it's so beautiful when it works it constantly amazes me and the synchronicity of how those energy fields work is just, is unexplainable, but it's beautiful at the same time. There are some words that, are so simple but not necessarily used that much.
One is trust, trust in things, working out,- you could call it like trust in the universe or trust in where we're meant to be.
Sometimes, people who are more geared towards listening to the universe do say, or the sort of ilk of thinking I need to quite literally look out for signs.
What am I feeling? What am I seeing?" Do you relate to that? Yeah, on a daily basis, Arthur, I I think it's extraordinary how it works. Constantly things just seem to happen.
It might be, again, like I said, it might be a friend ringing you up and say, "Oh, do you wanna go to the pub tonight?" And you go to the pub, and you sit down, and suddenly, a guy sits next to you, and you get chatting, and you exchange numbers, and you go on a date the next week.
Maybe it's as small as that. The other day I had this really weird incident in the gym where [00:26:00] a guy was wearing a cap with the name of one of my dad's really old friends on it, and I was like, "That's a sign from the universe. I need to go up to that guy and start a conversation." You never know where...
I don't know where that's gonna lead. It's still an open box. But sometimes I think it's just having the confidence to pursue those lines and the way the universe works is just... It is extraordinary.- Have there been moments where you've met someone who's just got such an extraordinary sense of trust in the world, and their world's working out?
'Cause I find that's always quite unusual when you meet people who have just, are so unstressed and they just have conviction that things work out. What, do you think we can take away from maybe some of those people you've come across? I think usually it's those people that have been on a pretty tumultuous, horrendous journey themselves up to that point where they've been able to really work on themselves and come to that inner sense of peace.
I don't think anyone's just like that. . I don't believe that you can have that absolute trust unless, you've really sat with that lack of trust for a while, and the desire to hold [00:27:00] onto control, and realize that actually living a life like that isn't very pleasant, and it really takes us further and further away from who we are.
And I'm wrestling- ... with that at the moment. I know that certain behaviors don't serve me anymore, but they're still coming from a protectorate part of myself that I understand, and it's all fear-based. And I'm not quite ready to drop them yet, but I can see how they're holding me back still.
And I think when someone's been on that journey and has uncovered everything in themselves... I interviewed Gabor Mate, and he said, "You know what? What does recovery mean?" And I sat there and I was like it's all about uncovering who you are as a person." And I think some of us get so removed from actually who we are and reconnecting with that
life is a, it all goes in cycles, doesn't it? Sometimes you have to face all these horrible things and adversities to come to a point of realization that actually things don't always work out. But having that inner sense of self and peace- ... is something that really helps [00:28:00] you navigate those hard moments, when things don't work out in your favor, and when things are going wrong.
'Cause nothing will ever go right for everyone and anyone all the time. We're gonna talk about a word. We're gonna talk about the F word, fear. You've, gone on amazing journey of learning about so many topics, some of which we've discussed. Can you give us a really simple analogy of how fear should be managed well?
fear is something that is completely paralyzing at times. But what I would say is when you're facing a fear, you've got to ask yourself, where's that fear coming from? Because a lot of the time we wear this armor to protect ourselves from the fear, whereas in fact, if we took the armor off, we'd realize that actually the fear it's not something to actually be so fearful of.
And Brene Brown talks a lot about fear and doubt, and in order to face fear, we do have to be vulnerable. [00:29:00] We do have to be emotionally exposed. And, we do have to have that sense of the outcome might be what is uncertain, there is no certainty in any outcome. But facing the fear and doing it anyway will lead to a renewed sense of confidence.
A really helpful tactic can be reframing fear as excitement. And actually, every time you feel so fearful about something, it's actually maybe I'm excited about it 'cause the brain doesn't know the difference between fear and excitement.
It lights up the same region. So actually, if you can say to yourself actually, I'm really excited about this," suddenly the fear starts to dissipate. And as well, when you're facing something that really challenges you, for me, it's reminding myself of those little affirmations, I'm safe, I'm lovable, I'm okay.
Whatever works for you. I'm not a massive proponent of looking at s- yourself in the mirror and telling you things that you really don't believe. But just that thing of my feet are on the ground and I'm safe, and I can do hard things. And the more that you start to gather evidence and face the fears, and I think sometimes you need to [00:30:00] do it on a gradual graded process because, if you start to do the thing that fears, fills you with the most fear, then you're probably gonna procrastinate, and you won't do it.
But if you start off with those little tasks that actually, you know what? I can push through that, and you do them, and you give your brain the evidence that it's safe. I'm okay. 'Cause ultimately, it all boils down to the story you're telling yourself. Like why are you scared of that thing?
It's because I've told myself I'm scared of it. And we all fear change. Humans just fear, change as a threat. And again, that goes back to, evolutionary principles where, change is essentially a threat for the brain. But if we get stuck in such a rut, you so soon start to just feel, yeah, just again, like we said before, that feeling of not moving forward, of just that stuckness, that ugh, God.
And it's not a nice feeling. And it stops us from really realizing our potential, and it does, it becomes the enemy of growth, and it becomes the enemy of joy. Now,
Pandora: [00:31:00] you've had over 300 or so interviews, can you give us some highlight examples of things you've learned or heard that have just hit you hard and been like, "Wow, that's interesting," or, "That makes sense," and, "That's super smart"?
Oh my God, Arthur Not an easy question. That is not an easy question. Just in having so many deep conversations with people, it's that no one escapes suffering in their life, really. People can run away from it, and people can be in denial, but [00:32:00] ultimately, what these conversations all show me is that, there is a struggle and a suffering, sadly, that, everyone encounters at any given stage in their life.
Gosh, I don't even know where to begin. So Professor David Nutt, who's one of the main psychedelic researchers, in the world now, he really opened my eyes to, psilocybin and ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, and all the other options that are out there which I'm a big proponent of.
And I've had a few conversations with various doctors about psychedelics on the podcast because that's really where a lot of mental health's going. Another actually psychiatrist called Dr. Mark Horovitz, who talked to me about titrating off SSRIs and other sort of anti-anxiety medications, and that was really life-changing for me because I was prescribed one medication when I was 12, and it's now very heavily monitored, and it's a very controlled drug because it is so highly addictive.
And if I had known that when I was 12, I'm now trying [00:33:00] to titrate off it once and for all. But the process has been brutal, and he really opened my eyes to how we actually often think that, these withdrawal symptoms are actually us relapsing, when in fact it's just withdrawal.
So you have to do it so unbelievably slowly when you're trying to titrate off those medications. That personally was really powerful for me. And then just, hearing these personal journeys, even like you said about James Haskell, knowing that someone who on the outside appeared to be this big, boisterous rugby player who, wouldn't let anyone stand in his way, was crippled by lack of self-confidence and would replay matches time and time again, berate himself for not being good enough, and actually understanding that he was someone who really struggled with ADHD, and that he- he liked to be, like, super busy doing sort of 10 different things at a time. But it's just this tapestry of, yeah, the human race is just extraordinary. And, h- sometimes, some of the most interesting interviews I have are people with similar stories. I [00:34:00] did Dr.
Alex George, and he'd only recently been diagnosed with OCD, having primarily thought that, his issue was ADHD, and having a such a deep connection. And I love those OCD interviews because I think OCD's such a misunderstood condition. So another one was with Kimberly Nixon, another one was with Bryony Gordon.
And they bring me so much depth, those OCD conversations, because there's just this synergy and this appreciation for what each other's sort of journeys have looked like , and then obviously the privilege of interviewing someone like Gabor Maté, which is just immense. , It's so funny because when you say Gabor Maté, some people are like, "Who?"
And then other people are like, "Oh my God, Gabor Maté." So you know, it, it's different for everyone, but, every interview gives me something, unique. And I recently, one of my favorite interviews I did recently was with Emma Louise Boynton, and it's so weird how these things happen at a stage where, they, I don't know, it coincides with what you're going through.
And she's written a book called Pleasure, which is all about anorexia and sex and [00:35:00]reconnecting with her body, and how she realized that she had never really got any pleasure from sex apart from in one relationship in her early 20s. And so in her late 20s she went on this journey to reconnect with her body, and has written this extraordinary book all about that. And that was, yeah, a really great conversation because again, it's something that, I've experienced, and I think so many women experience but don't talk about enough.
Let's jump into OCD what is OCD? OCD obsessive compulsive disorder, is a very complex condition. But essentially, it's basically a lot. The sufferer is bombarded with intrusive thoughts, and in order to deal with those intrusive thoughts, you feel the need to carry out a compulsion, so a behavior.
And that behavior might be, tapping something a particular number of times. It might be checking something. It might be imagining a sequence of people in your head. But essentially, the compulsion is there to negate the obsessive [00:36:00] intrusive thought becoming a reality. And the thing with OCD is that it metastasizes very quickly because it will attach to the thing that you care about the most in life.
So it might be about being a perfect person, it might be about not causing harm to anyone else, it might be about not being contaminated by AIDS. And you will do anything in your power to prevent that outcome becoming a reality. And so the disorder creates this s- in a form of magical thinking, all these rituals you have to do to get that certainty that the outcome won't come true.
But the trouble is, obviously, you can do any amount of things and as a rational brain will realize is that, anything can happen at any time. You can't guarantee that by tapping say for 100 times, that your dad's not gonna die, and it becomes so paralyzing so quickly because the sufferer just goes into that state of fight, flight or freeze, and the amygdala becomes so activated that you're just, literally living this living [00:37:00] hell basically inside your head. You talked in the past about, your mother went to a local doctor and was like, I think my daughter's got OCD. What do I do?" And they were like, "What's OCD?" That was not yesterday as it were, and OCD is talked about in a different way now than then.
But what about OCD do you want to share and want people to be more aware of? First of all, that OCD is not being, being one of those people who can't step on three drains on the pavement, or who has to check the lock five times when they leave the house, or who has to organize their socks in a particular way in their drawer.
OCD is something that really starts to take over someone's life and really consumes the sufferer with this level of doubt and anxiety that people who haven't had OCD will just not be able to comprehend. And it is, it becomes a living nightmare because it will become your sole purpose and- It gets to the point quite often when people can't leave rooms [00:38:00] of houses because there are so many compulsions and rituals they have to do either in order to leave that room or once they get out of the room, there are just so many different variables that can happen that will disrupt the sort of OCD's semblance of control.
We're not gonna dive immensely in your journey, but, for those that are interested, the way you connect your historic experiences with OCD and gen- your, your mental health journey there's no two ways about it.
You really share in a way that people can understand, take learning from. And also, maybe it's fair to say that, . when you see people suffer from something, there's often, one might not have you know, have experienced that specific experience, but the, but those feelings from that challenge, one can relate to.
And it's very extraordinary the way you do share it. What are the topics that you want to really devote time to that you don't [00:39:00] think, you've done yet enough? One of the really interesting things that I'm really sitting with at the moment is- That I'm not sure I agree with all these labels we're putting on ourselves because I think, what is neurodivergence and what is being neurotypical?
And this is something I think we're all on a spectrum, right? And I from interviewing the number of people I have, I realize that, yeah, there are parts of me that relate massively to someone who's autistic. There are parts of me that relate massively to someone with ADHD. I obviously was originally diagnosed with OCD and anorexia, at times I've lapsed into binge eating, at times I've lapsed into purging, at times my over-exercise could be it's an addiction, but is it also purging?
So something I really want to start having a conversation about which some psychiatrists are definitely starting to talk about, is the fact that are these labels actually as helpful as we think they are? Because- ... the DSM, which is the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is basically is it what psychiatrists will refer to when they're [00:40:00] diagnosing someone is just become-- it's just getting bigger and bigger because the number of symptoms, the number of diagnoses now is just k- expanding so rapidly.
And the problem that we're facing now is that so many people are being diagnosed that actually the people who really need the help and the resources are not getting them. Quite often there's this whole notion now of, "Oh, another pe- person with ADHD," and it's slightly met with an eye roll. So I'd like to explore that a bit more and go down the neuroscience route because I think, the way our brains work is much more helpful, certainly for me, in understanding the idiosyncrasies o- of how my brain works and why it works in a particular way.
Why, with something like rejection sensitive dysphoria you always interpret something as a negative or it's always about you. And that for me is starting to be much more helpful. And another thing I really want to do more of is, the whole AI and dating landscape and what is going on there with phones and apps and what it's actually doing to our brains and our [00:41:00] mental health in a big way.
We're only scratching the surface, I think, of actually the negative implications of how addicted we are to our devices and phones and social media. There's a lot of scope there for more work to be done because it is really dysregulating on our systems and Really reducing our brain capacity and power and really taking us away from the joys in life like playing and human connectedness and all of those things that we really need just to thrive and survive. Looking at you, it sounds like you've got a lot to be getting along with. In other words. I hope so, Arthur. I hope that, I've got lots more interesting topics to yeah, dive into because, yeah, I'm in it for the long haul.
You are. It's been our treat today to have you share all that you've shared, so thank you so much. Thank you.
