Mental Health: How to Care for It — with bestselling author & mental health campaigner Rachel Kelly

Arthur: [00:00:00] Rachel Kelly. Today we have a very special guest, rachel, you are listed as being one of the top five UK influences around mental health. Mother of five, bestselling author. I mean your books. I certainly can't keep up.

There's so many insightful thoughts and learnings . What's so beautiful around, how you push your messaging is how. You bring your own story into that and your own experience with depression. I know you were a journalist for a long time working at the Times, be really interesting to touch on that and how that's impacted how you feel.

But from where I sit, there's one word that I'm thinking of, which is WO Wwo. What, how do you do it? Secondly you you've clearly got this mission aside from, being, contributing to your family of really wanting to allot people away from being, ha having depression.

Where are [00:01:00] you on that journey? Wow. Gosh. I'm saying the why word too. Yes. I think I think in terms of. Motivation. I'm in a, been a fairly similar place for a while, which is that I was very unwell. I was in a psychiatric hospital. I did suffer two very severe depressive episodes in my thirties.

And this really did set the course for my life and my work, which was, as you say, it, just trying figure out good practical strategies for sort of psychological calm and feeling okay about life and managing really as somebody who has always got this tendency to, to fall back, to feel anxious and depressed.

And I'd say in terms of where I am right now, that sort of overall framework is constant, but I suppose when you look from the outside, it looks like I've got this really together life and I knock out these books, [00:02:00] et cetera, et cetera. The reality is that actually I'm still quite up and down and I'm always having to manage my own mental health.

And actually the last three or four months I've been quite wobbly because our, my, I dunno which order to put them in, but my father died in the summer in July and our dog died in July as well. And I've had a rather odd time since then, which is, I've slightly been hibernating, I've been doing rather less.

And it has been a difficult period. What I would say is, right now I think I'm really interested in the strategies that sort of are working. Despite having quite a wobbly period having not had such a difficult period for quite a while. So yeah, I think that's where I am at the moment, is doing a bit less outward facing work, but just more contemplation and reflection about, what is a good approach right now?

What does help because there's so [00:03:00] many, there's the, it is very multi multifaceted and you know how one can, keep a cheer yeah, as it were. And I guess the question has two questions. One is like, how, how are you, which is quite a direct question.

And then the second is, how are you on your mission of, helping other people? Because from, looking at it, you've released incredible books that touch on very different. D different but related topics. Do you have this vision of where the top of the mountain is in terms of how you want to help people with learnings and because you do so much, you write write newspapers, youve got your books.

You do speeches. . And clearly a great, mother. There's a lot there. Do you have not a concept of where in your dream world where this goes for you? Yeah, I think so. I think this sort of.

Period that I'm in at the moment. [00:04:00] I've never really thought this, but I think sometimes there's this almost simplistic thing in mental health that you have a big drama, you get over it, you're sorted and you ride off into the sunset and everything's fine forever more.

And I think this latest period, even though I've been dedicated to working in mental health and working with charities, I'm an ambassador for sane and rethink mental illness and really trying to figure this stuff out for at least 10 years now. What I would say now is that I've got a slightly different view in terms of we sometimes sell a very simple story that, we're gonna figure everything out and we'll get sorted, and then, everything's gonna be fine.

Where I am now, it's almost as if. I think this process of learning and growing and managing is just so ongoing and you just go deeper and figure out more and more ways and strategies of dealing with all the challenges that life hits you. So there are challenges I had earlier in my life, and I think, as I say, almost, it's okay, I'm all sorted off.

[00:05:00] I go into the sunset. And I'd say now that I would think it's almost like I'm actually asking for even more. I want even more, I want even more an ability to withstand challenges and find ways through. And to your point about like, where do I see the next sort of, in, in my dreams. I think in my dreams what I would like is when I come through this period of kind of reflection and almost going deeper and changing this narrative.

It's all sorted. And then we're all good to a narrative, almost like. We're asking for more. There will be more challenges every time we have more challenges, we can find more and more ways of dealing with them. But as we learn and grow and life, hits us with more and more kind of ways of growing as it were that's actually what I now want to do in this sort of almost deeper stage.

And so it will be continuing to work with the [00:06:00] charities to keep talking to people about their experience and what did they find helpful when they hit the next bump in the road, and how did they sustain their mental health and their wellbeing through all these ongoing challenges. And I suppose as you get older, you are enough to be faced by bereavement and illness and a whole bunch of new challenges, which I didn't really have when I started this journey. Different kinds of illness, I did have mental anyway, so I think that's where I've got to, and I think I'm. Funny enough talking to you I I'm feeling as almost inspired again that I have got new things I want to share.

I've just gotta have the kind of energy to go out and get some of the messages out. 'cause I do feel I've gone to a sort of deeper level in yeah, actually someone we both know, but who will remain nameless, is involved in a lot of amazing projects. And, the kind of question I posed was, oh, what's the next book type thing?

Yeah. And, the beautiful response was, it will come at the right time. Yeah. And life has that funny [00:07:00] thing, doesn't it? Where it's like. We all want to do these amazing things, maybe whatever that might be.

But , it has to come naturally and that space emerges and you you don't, you can't control the sea ahead. I really like that. 'Cause I think as well there's a certain narrative, a bit like this narrative of into the sunshine and happily ever after, and you're never gonna have to worry again.

There's also this sort of narrative of doing and, let's, crack on and especially a certain kind of background and education. It's pass the next exam, write the next book. And I was very much in that treadmill collect up brand names, go to the times, get your book published.

And there's always that bit of me that sort of, I'm only valid if I've got another book to my name and I can say I've got a Sunday Times bestseller and therefore I'm okay. So that kind of constant need for approval and affirmation from others and a kind of constant need to am I good enough and I'm only good enough of I'm doing.

And so I think there's [00:08:00] this sort of. I am interested at the moment in almost a different way of creating, which is I haven't got a book I want to write right now. But I think you can create in other ways. Like you can create, like we are creating a conversation. You can create spaces for people.

You can create a space to hear what other people have to say. A create a time to reflect a, just a time to really think more deeply about. As I say, I'd say if I had to try and analyze it, it's these sort of narratives in society, which I'm really questioning now. You know how we evaluate people based on their achievements and, like you were so sweet in your intro I've done all these things, quote, but it's almost can I feel okay when I'm not supposedly.

Being this big achiever. Am I just valid anyway, are you Arthur valid? Just because you are who you are and you are perfect Anyway. And I do [00:09:00] notice this a lot in myself, but also with young people, that they're very needy for outward validation and affirmation, and they need other people to say that they're okay.

So I'm very interested in this idea is in a kind of this slightly slow period, could I just feel okay anyway and not always need, some quote achievement to think that I'm all right. That's so beautifully per. Several thoughts come to mind, sometimes, a chef I'm sure will have a different concept to this, but sometimes you've gotta wait for the soup to bubble, and for you it's ideas to come out. Yeah. And I love that phrase, soup to bubble. That's so great. It's like almost I'm getting an image as well of things germinating underground. Nature has these fallow periods. Yeah. And yeah. And there's, I think also we forget as people that we are animals.

And actually, just seasonally, people, many animals, they rest in winter. And Yes. And, one can think, oh gosh, it's gonna be dark and clue me. Which in, that is the reality in some senses. But [00:10:00] then also it gives us other things. And what you are experiencing at the moment is that, it's that there is, if you look externally, you think, oh.

That you can have that unhealthy narrative, which is making you feel like you're not being productive or whatever. But actually it's totally the opposite. It's your downtime is your, is really serving you. So which brings us onto an interesting concept, which is happy people.

Life has its sways different chapters. Sure. But the what to you if you were to think of a person or a kind of, a state in which you've seen someone in that you've, you feel you really want to emulate. And that does touch on kind of what life's about.

I was walking to a cafe recently, it was saying, mothers take their kids to, have some coffee, et cetera, and families altogether. And I yeah, it suddenly occurred to me like, this is what life's about. It's not about necessarily , hitting loads of [00:11:00] achievements.

It's about waking up, enjoying the wake up and enjoying the shower. Yeah, sorry to give you a few things in the air as it were, but No, I just want to do a comment on those. I think those, I really, I think a lot of those concepts are so to totally what I believe in. Oscar Wild had this phrase, simple pleasures of the last resort of the complicated mind.

And there is absolutely something about, appreciating that cup of coffee or that moment in the sunshine, or as you say, but I think you touched on something. Profoundly more deep, which is something I've, in this period of reflection, I've been thinking a lot about, and I'd sum it up with the word connection.

So I'd say I think happy has become such a sort of loaded word, and it's got, in a way, it's got a lot of expectations to it, which kind of almost quite pressurizing for people that they feel, this, as I say, this kind of, you've gotta ride into the sunset and happy ever after. I think for me, a better way of thinking of it is this idea of feeling connected.

So I'd say that for all of us. [00:12:00] Our main relationship is with ourselves. So you, Arthur, spend more time with your thoughts than with anybody else. So you have lots of relationships. You are a son, I don't know, you're a partner. You're a friend, you have lots of relationships, but actually most of the time you hang out with Arthur and most of the time I hang out with Rachel.

So our main connection is the, is with ourselves. So I would say that one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is this kind of connection with ourselves and how do we foster a good connection. And I've also become really interested in the sort of mind body link. And if you want a clue of when you are feeling, let's say, happy or when you're feeling connected, I think almost the single best way is to be in your body and just see how your mind and body are connecting.

And if you drop into a space of ease. Of calm, of a sort of a spaciousness, physically, a kind of feeling [00:13:00] of connectedness. And it's really interesting, once you build that sort of bodily awareness, you can use it as a kind of tool to line up with those times when you are most as I say, connected and feeling your sort of easiest self.

I think that word of ease is really nice as well. So you can use it in all sorts of ways to do a sort of check in almost how you're feeling and which people do you feel really calm and light. And you can tell in your body. And I've become more and more interested is that when we are emotionally tense or stressed, we become physically tense.

So mind body are completely connected. And we've gotten a real model with this sort of idea of this duality. You've probably heard of Rene Decart. So he was the French philosopher, and he gives us the word Cartesian. And it's this mind body split, which actually informs a lot of modern medicine, which is, treat the mind [00:14:00] here, treat the body there.

And one of the things I've become more and more interested in is how we can think of the two as totally connected and use that as a sort of GPS kind of guidance system to where we are lining up feeling really at ease. For example, we're having this chat now, my shoulders are dropped. I feel really calm, I'm really enjoying it.

We're swapping ideas, this is as good as it gets. This is what, for me, feeling connected is feeling happy is just being. At one and connected with myself. And then from that place, being able to connect with others because, we are social beings and we do need that connection. So I think those are some of the ideas that I'm really interested.

And some of my books have been about strategies to calm the body, because sometimes if your head is in a real mess and you are overwhelmed with really strong feelings one idea is, if you can calm your body, that's a way to calm your mind. So some of the sort of breathing [00:15:00] techniques some of the links around mood and food.

I did a book called Food, which is linking gut health with mental health. So it's a very holistic, very broad approach. Wow. So many, again, listeners' minds swirling, I'm sure. Yeah, so so beautifully put and we'll move it, back to this concept because, it's so great, I think for everyone to be talking about this like north side objective of just like being happier generally.

But the reality is that life is just always gonna have the down parts. And and we should touch on expectation and managing that but that's really interesting just the concept of going back to your body. Meditation for example, has quite a unique way of bringing you, turning you off from reacting to your external environment and coming back in.

What are the ways that you suggest to people for locking back into the body and being physically [00:16:00] aware and creating that physical. Calmness and comfort. Yeah, I think you summed it up really well in the sense that it's not that we're gonna always have this connection and calm, but what we're looking to have is some ideas and strategies that when we are you might say, outta alignment, not feeling that things are at ease in our minds or bodies, then what do you do?

So yes, I'm very practical in what, because as you say, we're all can be overcome by difficulties. I'd say that there's something about trying to come back to being present centered. One way of thinking about anxiety is that it's about throwing forward to the future.

And if you talk to someone who's anxious and outta whack, you might say, a lot of what they're saying is, oh, I'm so worried that this is gonna happen. I won't get the job, or my relationship will break down, or it's about the future. And then another way of thinking things is that depression is about regret and it's [00:17:00] about the past.

Oh, I should have done that. I wish I'd done that I could have done that better. So one antidote is to come into the present and there's a few ways that actually physically come into the present. And one is laughter. It's so simple, but laughter forces you to be in the present. You can't laugh in the past or the future.

And sometimes it's as simple as actually almost dialing it down. It's almost like we are living very histrionic, a panicky times. And there's something about a sort of almost a simplistic joy, laughter, whether that's somebody who makes you laugh or a film that makes you laugh or something where you can come back to being very pre present centered 'cause laughter's in the present.

I mentioned the breathing techniques there's lots of different ones. What I would say to people is that everybody's different physiologically, so don't get too worked up about the breathing techniques. But the basic thing, again, you can't [00:18:00] breathe in the past. You can't breathe in the future.

You can only breathe now. And the basic thing is you always wanna come in through your nose. And the way to remember that is you've got little hairs on the inside of your nose, which means that the air gets to exactly the right temperature and you stop the bug. So if you wanna use breathing as a way to calm, it's always in through the nose.

And then it's always out through the mouth. And then the other basic concept is that the out breath needs to be a bit longer than the in breath, but it's a great way to come back to being present centered and to calm your body. I do think keeping an eye on what you eat and noticing how that can what make you more wired.

So very simple things like how much caffeine you are having. So for example, I used to, I got into intermittent fasting and I thought, okay, I'll just have a coffee in the morning. And actually it was a disaster because I was getting this kind of cortisol hit from the coffee and I wasn't. Having enough food to keep that steady.

And actually you are more anxious in the morning anyway because we have to have cortisol to get us up. So now I actually have [00:19:00] something, I have some porridge or I have something where, food does influence mood and it does influence our body. So those are just some very simple sort of, almost practical things whereby you can come a bit more into your body.

And then I think the other whole area is when you feel something very strongly and you are out of whack is to just allow it and be with it and not panic and not fight. So it's reframing this whole concept that we're all gonna sort ourselves out and we're gonna be happy. No, we're gonna have these dramas that if you think of the word emotion, it's emotion.

Our feelings change. And they pass. And in a way, the less you fight them and the more you can just accept them and be with them at that moment and drop into a kind of, okay. Not so much, for example, I am angry, but I am feeling angry right now. Or I am feeling upset, which [00:20:00] acknowledges that it's a feeling, but it will pass.

And allowing it and just being with it and being with it in almost a kind of, quite a physical way. I actually think CBT doesn't really address the fact that you can't really start having sensible conversations about different ways of thinking of things when you are really worked up. So for me it's a, it's about allowing those strong feelings coming back into the present being in your body, and then you can challenge some of the narratives.

We were talking earlier about some of the narratives you are only good enough, quote, if you have all these achievements you are only valid if you are doing things. I need to be happy all the time. Some of these stories that we tell ourselves, and I'd say the way that. That can be effectively challenged is literally that they're just stories.

They're not reality, they're just narratives that we can find other ways of thinking about things. And it's really interesting because when you tell people that you don't necessarily you don't [00:21:00] you are still valid and important and lovable.

However, quote successful you are, it's really interesting how they become much calmer and they go back to that kind of physical calm. And that's a good clue that's a really good way to think because you feel so much better. So I think these are all strategies about managing feelings and trying to line up with ways of thinking and ways of feeling where you feel at ease and calm and physically relaxed.

Yeah. And we touched on that, this concept that we're as valuable as achieving X and y yeah. Is just complete nonsense. And yeah, I think, obviously in some societies more than others, you are deemed more special if you are do X and y. Yeah. And just how that's so contrary to how we're built to be nice to ourselves, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, and I think that a really good way of challenging that is that we're very results [00:22:00] driven as a society. So even now, one way of looking at this conversation is, oh, will it go viral? And Arthur Lonsdale will become, the world's most famous podcaster, and I'll suddenly become, super this or super that.

But actually if you step into the process, so I'm just enjoying this right now. Anyway. Rather than thinking of the result, which gets you really stressed. 'cause we can't control results. We don't know if anyone's gonna listen to us or not listen to us, or I don't even know. But it's a very different way of thinking about things.

And listen, I've struggled with all of this. I'm the queen of thinking I have to get results. And so it's a big, yeah it's in our world and it's very hard to do things like, enjoy the process. It's not how the world is designed. Do you have a view? Because, there seems to be a mixture of factors that mean that people end up doing something that they love.

Yeah. And it's really a [00:23:00] really fan fascinating study. In Monocle recently, which covered, it was an AI analysis of about a hundred or so books that people had written about their lives. And these are not people who have set up huge businesses. These are Yeah.

People who have lived more of a tradition, had more of a traditional ordinary route. Yeah. And a lot of them seem to as associate how work just gives them a lot of stability. Yeah. Do, how do you feel people can get to doing what they do and love quicker? Yeah. A couple of points.

I, I'd say that everybody has a range of different gifts. And I think that I think sometimes the mistake is almost to make a hierarchy of gifts and somehow attribute more value to a certain gift than another gift. And that can sometimes put you at odds with actually finding an occupation or a job, which actually suits you really well.

I'll give you an example. I do lots of [00:24:00] public speaking and working with my charities and going around the country, which I absolutely love. And I had a enough work that I actually needed a little bit of a team to support me. And a lady came to work for me and her job was to organize my travel and make sure I got on the right train and I had the right slides and was meeting the right person, et cetera, et cetera.

Now, this might sound really odd, but I actually felt really guilt tripped about her because I felt that I had this sort of fancy life supposedly giving all these talks and her job was like super boring. And then I talked to somebody about this kind of concept of gifts and lining up with your gifts as a way to find work that's satisfying.

And she said to me, there's no hierarchy. You are good at communicating. Some of these ideas and your background is as journalist and communicating and you like doing that and you have a gift for it. Now she has a gift for organization and getting you on the right train. And that is a valid gift too.

And she gets [00:25:00] satisfaction from exercising that gift. And I think that's one of the things I've struggled with is somehow, thinking that only certain gifts have status or value. And actually, for me it's now about the fact that, I have lots of different gifts. So for example, some of my gifts, because they're not thought to be high status gifts, it's almost like I've ignored them.

And you, Arthur have lots of gifts. Everybody listening to this has lots of gifts. So what I would say in terms of finding satisfying work is to step away from somehow one gift is more important or valid than another gift. And just to try and, acknowledge all the different things you are good at.

And also you can do that back to our earlier concept of lining up with when you feel calm, when you feel connected, when you feel relaxed, when you feel in the flow, when you are enjoying the process as opposed to the results as another concept we've discussed. That's a really good way of working out if you are in your [00:26:00] gift.

And most people actually have lots of different gifts. But I think it's about not thinking that anyone is more or less important than the other. That's so powerful because, really holds pe people back. Just the concept of ignoring one thing. Some families can be very traditional.

Maybe you ha you have a gift for making money. That is a gift, but it's only one gift. And if you push that gift to such an extreme you may end up ignoring some of your other. Ways to feel fulfilled and, in, in your element. So yeah, I think that's something that I've had to learn.

I think that when I was younger, I was very caught up in what you might call high status gifts. And some of these challenges I've had, like needing outward approval, needing affirmation I'd like to think that now I'm more able just to, appreciate different d different gifts.

It's a gift to be able to be at home with small children as it happens. It's not a gift that's rated by the society or the world. . But it, that doesn't stop it being a gift and being important. [00:27:00] Yeah. That's such a beautiful message. And actually it's a great way to combat failing down, isn't it?

Writing three things you're grateful for Yeah. Each day and acknowledging what one does have because yeah, there's, there are, you can, and maybe you are, this is true and non true in certain ways, but there are different ways of looking, at things. You could be two people in the same situation and able to think very differently of that situation.

And both things could be, have their nature of being true 100%. And I think that's a sort of a central con concept of lots of religions and Buddhism. That's less what happens. It's how you choose to respond. What happens. And I think you make a very good point that actually if you are, if you start off like someone like me who has in a way to rid myself a lot of stories which have led to.

Nervous breakdowns and being so unwell. And it you do have to put po possibly a bit of focus and [00:28:00] attention into what you're gonna decide to focus on. So what you focus on expands. So your point of focusing on where you feel grateful, whether that's for your gifts or the chance to have a great conversation like we're having now, or what we put our focus on expands so we can pivot our focus to, in every scenario, okay what is to enjoy here?

What is there to be grateful of here? And that is especially true of setbacks, because you can reframe it almost entirely, which is, every stumbling block is a stepping stone. And I suppose in a way, for me, back to my personal experience, because I was out of action being unwell for so long.

I could either decide that had been a tremendous waste of my time and was just, there was nothing good about it. Or I could decide that actually this was an opportunity to learn and grow. And when I was really ill with severe depression and I was in hospital, there was one phrase which actually comes from [00:29:00] the Bible and it's, my strength is made perfect in weakness, which has obviously got a sort of irony there.

But the idea that, you become stronger and you can learn and grow. So IE nothing if you choose to look at it in a different way and those neural pathways then strengthen and grow. And it's part of this wider argument that I'm, I think we're having making which is it's not that everything's all gonna be sunshine and sorted, but we are gonna find strategies.

So next time, we're sobbing and we can't get up. We've got some ideas about what then could we do. How could we think about it? as you say, even lovely, simple Yeah. And and I guess, there's bizarrely, you've just got me thinking of almost having an AI replica of yourself and in a way that you can, one can relate to, and it encourages, you, gamifies the concept of manifesting positive thoughts and Yeah.

It knows your, it knows [00:30:00] that, it knows that the other side of fear and et cetera. Yeah. But actually it, in it encourages you to throw energy at the, the, at the pillars of that will help you, be thrown into the best version of you and, and Richard Branson's like hugely huge advocate for being positive.

Yeah. And that's really linked here. But but I, and I think an area, there's something really nice you're saying there, which is about acknowledging as well that, this kind of process of learning and growing, which is that, after this conversation, neither of us are quite the same person as before the conversation.

And just acknowledging that, acknowledging our ability to adapt and change and take on new ideas and, so yeah. I maybe that idea of the, a double, an avatar of how you were versus to where you are now. I, yeah. I just, I think acknowledgement is a really lovely word and it's such a nice thing.

I was working with some. Parents the other day who [00:31:00] were very worried about their teenagers and that they were doing, they weren't on top of social media and they weren't they were so worried about their teenager's use of phones, et cetera. And before we even started, we just all did a kind of acknowledgement exercise in the room just to come back to being a bit calmer and just like you are trying so hard as parents, and it's almost like everybody listening to this, it's almost like just acknowledge how much you're already doing, the very fact that you are tuning in and trying to find good ways to find that connectedness with yourself.

It's just a nice way to start. So PV per, and I'm thinking of two individuals right now. One is a friend who has been sadly, really treated badly at work and to the point whereby she's let, she's, it's not working there anymore. And she ultimately, her, her boss is someone who.

Just wants to constantly get more juice from, the lemon and with, regardless of the consequence. And it's quite a sort of [00:32:00] difficult situation, but my friend who's occasionally can lose that confidence in reality and what's happening. Yeah. Do you find, as such an accomplished woman who, you wear your, your vulnerability in your heart and your sleeve in such a beautiful and giving way, do you find that there is value in having for people to have a sheet of core truths around what they've achieved, what they're proud of, the great parts of them because it, when we're low on sleep.

There's a lot going on. One loses sight of one can easily lose sight of that reality. I know someone, I, yeah, I love that. I think that's a really, it's almost because we're gonna always have these sort of bumpy times when, life hits us like your friend and things are tricky.

It's almost like sort of image of a squirrel's coming up. It's almost have some things ready for those moments. So as you say, maybe a list of all the other times you've overcome challenges. I [00:33:00]think that's a really nice list. That I don't know. I failed that exam, but then I got into this, or I that's slightly going into results stuff, but or maybe, yeah, maybe more like qualities.

Like I found the patience. To kind of work through a difficult situation, and here's an example, and having a list of all the times that you found sort of qualities and strengths in yourself is a lovely thing to have. As you say, when things get bumpy, it can be quite difficult because, when I think of grateful list or list things you want in life, your immediate thinking is thinking about, basic achievement.

But actually, yeah. There are, it would be nice to, for people to have a better framework in which to think about things that they want in life, but also for things that they're grateful for, but for example, one, people probably don't enough write, work out or pay enough attention to how they were, how they turned up in a difficult time, or how they didn't say that comment.

Yes. In a moment where, yes, they were very [00:34:00] tempted to say. A sort of comment that was quite reactionary. Yes. So I think people need help there, no I like that. I think it's almost because of the narrative in our society, which is so success driven, it's almost we don't do enough of recognizing those times when things weren't so easy.

But we did come through and it's almost I was talking to an adolescent psychiatrist and they were talking about almost the best message you can give to a teenager who's really struggling is, okay, we've been here before. You struggle before. You did get it through it before, and you will get through it again.

So it's almost leaning in and breathing into their agency and their competency and their self-belief, and supporting that as much as you can. And then as an individual. To remind yourself of all those other times when you have managed and you have come through as a sort of, that the idea of the conversation you're having with yourself.

But I think another part of it is, [00:35:00] it's not just what you are saying and challenging the narratives, but it's also saying it in a kind of gentle and compassionate way, and a kind of with kindness and it's give yourself a hug. . Compa compass. We are gonna, we're jumping into compassion be so there's a single mother I know very well with two kids works very hard and just, I think that many lives, many people are pulled in so many directions.

Sure. And it's, there are so many things to fires put out in one way. Yeah. But if the opposite of fear is. Self empathy and compassion and kindness. . When you meet people who don't really have that voice or unaware of the optimal, beautiful, healthy, loving narrative that they ultimately deserve, how do you get them to forming and having that awareness of dar into that for [00:36:00] themselves?

Wow. That's, it's a big question, but such an important one because I'm, I, IM absolutely certain that developing this more compassionate narrative and I had to do it for myself is just absolutely at the heart of kind of just enjoying life more, in a kind of very basic way.

How do you. Develop self-compassion. Obviously he's gonna have to start with self-awareness, and that is why when we started, we were talking about a kind possibly a kind of period of hibernation and allowing reflection and allowing self-awareness and just spending a bit of time beginning to notice, for example, when you are very tough on yourself and you are far from being compassionate and you are telling yourself very negative messages.

I'm not good enough. I'm a child. I can't look after myself. Just noticing those sorts of phrases as a first step to [00:37:00] thinking, gosh, I'm pretty tough on myself. I'm pretty tough on myself. I think another really great way to develop this sort of gentler, compassionate voice, and we touched on it I think when before we actually started the podcast, is this idea.

Of trying to develop compassion for others. So there's some really nice research about when you volunteer and look after others who are finding life it's you wouldn't shout at a vulnerable child. You might shout at yourself, but you wouldn't shout at a vulnerable child. But we need times in our life when we practice that gentler, more compassionate voice.

So volunteering, working with others who are vulnerable. I think it's one of the reasons I love my work with some of my mental health charities because like for example, the SANE has a wonderful hotline and you can just hear the volunteers being so gentle and so compassionate. And even doing that a little bit makes it easier for you to find some of that self-compassion.

For [00:38:00] yourself as well as for others. So those are two really sort of simple ways to start such, such a beautiful and amazing comment there. And actually pets having a pet reminds us, I think, of sometimes I once reflected that, just hearing a personal trainer in the gym talk to their client and it's so encouraging.

Every point it's hey we're a bit closer. Yeah. And obviously, there are times you want different voices from let's say someone like a pt, but if one was to coach oneself in a compassionate way, yes. Achievements are Surely easier. That's lovely. I hadn't thought of that. As you say, actually a coach in a gym who's very gentle and got that kind of encouraging, that, well done.

And just those really encouraging phrases. And just finding those sorts of people in your life. And oh my God, I've had so much help and I still do. I'm still talk to a therapist. I do a boxing class and the trainer there is really [00:39:00] encouraging and, I've tried to it's not always true, but yes, obviously some friends can play that role have that very gentle, encouraging sort of support and building a team around you, whether that's partly paid for with professional help or.

Through your relationships, and then I think just, I love as well that idea that some things are just in themselves compassionate, almost like mood stabilizers. You are absolutely right that pets can be that. I think that's why I found the death of our dog so sta so devastating because for me, Sammy was pure compassion.

There was nothing transactional about him. Everything was just coming completely from a place of love. Sometimes little children, you can access a really pure compassion kind of mood stabilizer almost. So there are, it's almost a double whammy. It's becoming aware of when you're being your harshest, but [00:40:00] also pivoting and putting your attention where you can see compassion.

And you can find mood stabilizing forces in your life. Such imaginative and amazing ideas. You've been with your husband for a long time now and five children. What are you most grateful for having had the role of a mother and then also having the privilege of a long, partnership, relationship.

 It's so funny 'cause I suppose we've talked a bit about self-reflection and self-awareness. I'm not sure I have I thought very deeply about it. In a way it's so ongoing and current and it's so vivid and in the moment because there's just a lot of people involved.

So there's our children and then others, their partners, and we have a little granddaughter. It's almost like I haven't thought enough to properly consider, but I'd say the [00:41:00] one thing I would say is to just to slow down and just take those moments and just take those moments of appreciation and to be very present.

In the sort of maelstrom of family life and having raised a large family and lots of different relationships. I think where I've got to now I'll give you an example. So in fact yesterday I had quite a busy day. I had a little bit of work to do and I was gonna go and look after my granddaughter for a bit.

But my youngest daughter came over and she wanted to have breakfast. And actually I was slightly, oh God, I've got a rush and I need to get here and there. And I just did, a bit about being present centered, so doing some of those breathing exercises to come into the moment and just think, appreciation.

So lucky that my daughter wants to come out and hang with hang with me and have breakfast. And it was a sunny we made some eggs and we sat on the front step and we just sat in the sunshine and I was very conscious of being in that [00:42:00] moment and that moment will never come again in exactly that way.

So I think maybe that's a way of. Finding that appreciation is just slowing down and being very present rather than, rushing for the future, regretting the past. coming back to, can I just be present I love that so much because you are basically saying, one, one might have all these things, but to actually reap the rewards of, and to truly know what you have to just take those moments.

Yeah. And like program yourself be like, whoa, what's happening here? Yeah. And it's almost as if, again, trying to pull out what are some of these society narratives. It's almost like we value this idea that we're busy. You say to somebody, oh, I'd love to see you. Oh, I'm really busy right now.

And it's almost like a status symbol to be But what about if actually the real thing is to be present and actually To, use our time in a different kind of way. And not give status to [00:43:00] I've got or it's a sort of different way of thinking about it.

I don't know if Mirage is the right way of putting it, but we have such this a sort of bizarre concept of how we can be really geared into the world and actually Yeah. If one reflects about when they're feeling most calm, it's when they're their foot is most off the wheel.

And what you've touched on so beautifully is is just this, earlier on, just around how like you can't control everything. And actually that acceptance is very empowering. Sure. And then also this awareness of, hey, there's different chapters and yeah, time does go on and actually, connecting with people you realize that everyone has the battle and hey, guess what?

They're gonna continue. I like that this is our sort of common humanity in a kind of solidarity almost, which is that, we are in this together. And however shiny the surface feels, there's nobody who in this constant process of learning and growing and learning.

And if you can find that side of them, there's [00:44:00] something to connect Totally. But life tricks us into feeling like we are on this island battling this thing that no one else is battling. And it's just completely wrong. It couldn't be more wrong, it's just how does one bridge that and replace that connection with other people, all sorts of people.

It could be a religious figure, or like family member. Or people you don't know who have a sa the same issues. I was lucky enough to go and support a friend of mine doing aa, and even though I've not had that experience with. That addiction. It was so beautiful seeing all these people who have very different lives come together and support each other in such a and the awareness that they had that they were all on that journey.

, They all loved it. They loved it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really interesting because, I, so I did my first book in 2014, and that was about my own experience of severe depression. in 2014, mental health was talked about, but there was quite a lot of stigma, especially in a sort of certain world.

It was almost [00:45:00] like if you suffered real social deprivation, you might get depressed or, if you were really crazy artistic kind of celebrity type, you might be depressed. But there was this sort of middle world of, I don't know, doctors, bankers, journalists, lawyers who could still.

Get very unwell and feel very overwhelmed and have tell themselves some very dark and negative stories and have some very difficult and be very unwell. Where am I going with this? I think what I'm trying to say is that one of the lovely things for me about what happened was that it led to being connected, as you say, with so many other people through becoming an ambassador for sain mental illness that I became involved in a much bigger world of a kind of more honest conversation.

And obviously we're now 2025 and it's, mental health has talked about now in a way that was just inconceivable 10 years ago. And there are some we could talk more about that but the good side of it is this sense of being open-hearted and an open conversation and a kind of [00:46:00] much more.

Real conversation as opposed to pretending, which is such a stress on people so fascinating. Everythings fine. Like pushing good optics. It just, doesn't get you anywhere. Like the ego. Yeah. And actually there's so many things that we think serve us just that are very optic driven and they don't.

I sat next to a woman at a wedding in the summer, very successful woman who worked in the legal profession. . And. I picked up, very, very bright, very quick, whatever. And she brought in this whole story of how she had 10 years in, in, in a really difficult mental place.

And we had this, a great conversation. And after dinner she go, she as we say, goodbye. I said I bump into her later on that evening and she goes I'm really sorry. I hope I didn't bring you down by sharing that. I thought Wow. I was like that is, just need to make this really clear.

It was the most beautiful and connect filled experience [00:47:00] sharing that. So it's interesting how people can navigate away from that. Not that ever an environment's safe to, to share these things. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think that my own experience, I think one of the reasons I crashed in such a dramatic way is there were almost like there were two versions of me and there was this sort of high functioning, everything's fine.

When actually I was really overwhelmed and everything wasn't fine at all. But what's interesting is that requires a lot of energy to keep up the different personas. And actually what we're aiming for is to be more truly, I know authentics got a bad rap about it as a word now, but it, but we are trying to be who we actually are at any, rather than pretending to a kind or a efficacy or a sort of success that we may or may not, may, may.

It's just exhausting Yeah. I'm not qualified to necessarily comment on this, but the world does seem to work very well when you are connected to that real rhythm, that beat of life. Yeah. And sometimes that [00:48:00] beat is saying. Hey, you're not gonna feel that great today, but just take it easy.

Yeah. And sometimes it's, whoa, this is the most extraordinary party, or yeah. Conversation and just, you slightly have to go with what is there. I really like that because I think the danger of, in a way, you could say of too much sharing the bad which, which has got its virtues as we've established.

Yeah. I think sometimes it's easy to forget to share the good times. It's easy. It is. You say it's easy. Not to say this is just the conversation or it's the most beautiful day and it's almost like I do understand it. Having worked with lots of people who struggle it's almost, they feel like if they say things are okay, they won't get the focus and they won't get the attention.

But actually there's nothing more attractive than someone stepping into their joy. Stepping into their gifts. Yeah. It's almost like that's okay, we can meet you where you are at. I can meet you when you are low and you are cha, you're finding [00:49:00] life challenging and I can share some ideas, but I can meet you when you are having a great time too, but and that's okay as well.

Yeah. And I think, again, people are so different, but I think sometimes one's nature can be that you don't, you can't that, that it's a crime to bring in both. Yes. But actually maybe be structurally, but maybe we should be structurally encouraging people to be like, okay, so tell me the good and the bad, yeah. And sometimes some conversations will be Leo leading with on, on one or the other, but often for many people. But, both things are true and have that, this sort of great sense of serving both people if both are talked about. I think. I think that's right. And I think it's clearly too simplistic.

We're all at any one time. There's the minute to minute, there's a mixture of every feeling, anger, sadness, joy. We are designed to have them all and to move quite swiftly between them. You, we all know that, the day starts really well and then something goes wrong, and then [00:50:00] suddenly you're in a bad mood.

And it, but I think this concept of fact to emotion just being with, allowing and allowing those sort of big emotional shifts to keep happening and to be with them and not to panic about them. I think that's another big learning for me has been it's just for example a kind of overwhelming sadness.

It's very frightening, but actually no can I think of a new way of being with feelings, which nothing can overwhelm me. The real truth is nothing can overwhelm me. Every feeling does and just to hold onto that and even that knowledge and certainty, it diminishes the sort of ferocity of, very strong Interesting. Let's fire through some really top tips . For the people. So we're gonna start with great foods that, are just wonderful yeah. When I first got interested in nutrition and mental health, I went to see a doctor and she wrote, and I, and she wrote down on a prescription pad, try [00:51:00] these good mood foods.

So the three she wrote down are dark chocolate, which is really nice. 'cause sometimes we all need a bit of a boost. It's got some magnesium, which is calming, it's got some phytonutrients, not too much, but if a little bit of dark chocolate's good. The next one's oli fish. So that's your tuna, your mackerel.

So that's omega threes. I've been very lucky. I've been working with King's College London on some. Trials supplementing people with low mood with Omega-3, so that, and it really does have good results. So that's things like ma macro herring, tuna salmon, oily fish, and then the third ones dark green, leafy vegetables.

So your kale, your spinach, all those sorts of things. It helps the gut microbiome. So those would be the three really simple, eat more of these and it should help your mood a bit. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Those and let's move into some daily rituals I think almost go one step back. Sleep is a huge topic before we even start on the day. . The big learning for [00:52:00] me on sleep, which is that I, I have I have quite difficult sleep. I'm often up, it doesn't matter what matters is worrying about it.

So I'm still up and about and often I'll wake and maybe read or go downstairs or something. The thing that's debilitating and affects your mental health is that when you are up, you get in a panic about it. Oh oh my God I can't get to sleep. I won't be able to function tomorrow. Which is both my major depressive episodes started with really bad insomnia.

And so actually with designed to sleep, you will catch up. You may have to have a bit of flexibility in your life to allow it, but there are ways of doing that. So stop the worrying about the as opposed to don't get in a panic about it. I'll probably be up tonight. okay.

So that, that would be a really important kind of concept. So then in terms of sort of rituals and starting your day and how cope? One thing I would say is for a lot of people who are anxious like me mornings are really [00:53:00] difficult. The classic pattern is you get more relaxed as the day goes on.

If you catch me at about, partly we started our podcast at 10 30. 'cause I need about that amount of time to just get myself in a kind of quite a good, calm state. So one thing I now do is I don't put my phone on other than to put on music and I exercise when I first wake up because you have this sort of cortisol spurt to get you up.

And people who are more anxious do tend to be more anxious quite well known. So it's fascinating. It's, I know that I will feel quite anxious. I'll get in a panic. Oh my God, how am I gonna get through my day? I've got to do this, and this. Okay. Do some exercise. start.

So that's a, for me, is a really good thing. The things, like being outside, getting into the sunshine. beautiful day. I know lots of people now working for home. maybe take your laps up, wrap up in a big rug. I started working outside a few years ago.

It sounds crazy. [00:54:00] kind of crazy old lady on a bench, but, if it's a beautiful day I'll take my laptop go outside. Those are sensible things. I think a lot of the big things talking about today, that sort of self-awareness of when are you feeling calm, do you feel at ease?

Building more of that in, who do you see, when you feel at ease, making those sort of choices in quite a deliberate way. And it's not to. Sort, reject people, but it's just to be honest about what happens in that kind of co-creation when you see who do you feel nourishing?

the, who do, who are the radiators, not the drains, and trying to build in those connections through the day. Those would be some of the things that I'm really Yeah I'm gonna read out a few that come from some of your books and some great ideas.

Morning daylight, for 30 minutes. There are studies that show having daylight first thing is very important for one. There's also another thing about vitamin D and how everyone in the Northern hemisphere should be taking it. [00:55:00] Hey, two drops a day. Everything the government recommends from October to March that there's no other vitamin Recomme they make, but apart from fascinating, and light, light a candle.

I think the small thing seems to be quite powerful, right? What can bring one joy that's simple. Yeah, so I think, using techniques to come into the present to foster that kind calm and to be aware of how that's affecting mantras are nice.

I do sometimes use them, one of the ones I really like at the moment is just to take a pause, drop into kind of a calm, a pure awareness, a kind to slow up. And then almost you could just give yourself a hug, but also just, I just re repeat some mantras.

I have everything I whatever the day throws at whatever the day throws at me. And what I like about that is that you are building your own sense of [00:56:00] resourcefulness and you are you don't need anybody else to make you happy.

You don't need to wait. For anything else to happen. I have everything Yeah. I am enough and I'm in the workday at the right time. Yeah. I love that and where I need to be. Yeah. And everything is perfect right here, right now, even, and you can use that even when you are having a really strong, difficult moment.

It's counterintuitive, but it's perfect to be having this difficult moment because it's gonna , it is gonna be like this GPS lead me to where I do feel more aligned, where I do feel more Almost like that there is this beat, when you, and that there is there is enough for everyone and actually, when you give to other people, you send a nice message how much that can set you to being closer to that beat because you, that amazing word connection.

Yeah, I'm 100%. I love that there's this almost the idea of again, there's a really strong narrative in our society of, hurry, while stocks laughs there's not enough and this kind of fighting for, [00:57:00] and, we've gotta compete as opposed to a kind of spaciousness that there's room for all of us and there's room for my voice.

And my voice is valid and important. In fact, because I've done a lot of this somatic work. I'm really feeling it here, but there's a spaciousness and there's a validity to your voice and you, Arthur, and there's a validity to me. And there's just more and more space as opposed to somehow I'm competing.

My success takes away from your success. It is a kind of crazy concept really. Are there amazing things, concepts you've pushed as the comfort object. There being an object where that brings you comfort and grounding?

Yeah, I think I think, yeah, maybe not so much an object, but we talked bit about the concept of sort of mood stabilizers. The sort of where there's this kind of sort of magic to, as it were, a pet child. Sometimes you can find it in a kind of sense of awe or wonder with nature. I love going to the Lake district just because it's almost like got [00:58:00] a character and you not quite an object, but a landscape can give you that.

Sometimes you can feel very grounded. Another really simple one, it's a bit cold sometimes, but it's literally put your feet on the ground and just feel that sense of are connected to the universe, we're the planet, we're connected to something bigger than us, and there's room for all of us.

Yeah, that, I I interviewed this hostage negotiator and that's exactly what he talks about before, before we go, before things get, quite quite intense. He will literally take his shoes off and just sense what's around him. Yeah. And clearly there is something happening around when we're on something digital that kind of can, takes us away from something, but also bring us together.

Yeah. Do you, are you a big believer on the whole like five minute worry dump thing where you, if you are anxious about something you write about it? I think journaling can be really powerful. I have done it quite a bit. When you write a letter to somebody and you don't send it.

So all those [00:59:00] things, if you're finding a relationship really challenging, you write a letter with you find really challenging, but then you don't actually send it. But somehow by writing it down, there does seem to be something magical. It throws through your arm and onto the page.

And I think what's nice about that is that sometimes then you can pivot to what you appreciate about that person. So for example, if you've got a challenging encounter in your day and you are about to see somebody you find really instead of thinking of all the about them, think of really like about them and bring to mind those characteristics.

And then they tend to expand. And that, back to your hostage negotiator thinking well of people and thinking of really like. I think that can be very helpful. Yeah. And gratitude journal's nice. Writing down things. People are getting very well equipped.

We are gonna move to the quick, far question. Three things that give you joy. My first cup of coffee in the morning sunshine. And when I get a lovely text [01:00:00] one unusual thing that gives you pleasure. Rubbish. I love clearing things out. I love giving I love being orderly and recycling.

And I like giving things to charity shops. I love clearing stuff out. Shout out to the app audio if you've not come across it. Oh, I haven't. Oh, is that, oh, yes. That moves things along and my daughter's mentioned it to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's we had one of the co-founders on recently, if you've got something in your home, you're like, oh.

I need to hear that charity shop. Hey, you don't need to you put it on audio, someone will come and pick it up. Okay. Or it could be food, it could be an old tennis record. Okay. Lovely. That's made for me. That really is made for it's honestly, it's fantastic. Yeah. And they've done very well.

Very mission driven founders. So a favorite book film or artist that isn't obvious? The novel I probably go back to most is Middle March by George Elliot. It's a really great story, but every now and again, George Elliot pulls out the lens and has lots of [01:01:00] reflections on some of the ways society thinks about life, a bit like we've been talking about and challenges and she's got a bit at the end when the heroine dies about unfamous people and unacknowledged tombs. But there's validity and think that has been I'll find you the quote, but it's absolutely wonderful. That sounds fantastic.

One thing you can add to your bucket list today, what would that be? Would like more conversations. More connections. And one thing you would like to tell an earlier, a younger, ra Rachel 18, what would you say? Oh, definitely. I would say you are lovable. You are lovable and you are loved. you are loving and you're lovable That's lovely. Final one is what is in for [01:02:00] you right now and what is out for you? In, for me right now is now eating breakfast. Having not done that for a while in, for me is exercising every morning to music. Just going deeper and reflecting and reading more, and not necessarily feeling I have to create in a more conventional way.

I'm feeling like creating conversations, spaces. Out for me is being results driven. Out for me is feeling competitive with others. Out for me is feeling there's not enough space.

I want spaciousness and room. And reflection and That's what I want right now. Rachel, it's been a privilege for us all to have you [01:03:00] on what a treat. What a treat. Not, not the, so many ideas. You've kindly left everyone and so honest.

So aligned with, yourself and I truly feel like the way you connect to what we've been talking about today and the way you share and you give to people. Wow. You're very lucky to be so connected to something and have so much to contribute. So thank you so much for doing just that.

That's very lovely view. I don't really think it's me. I think it's just some stuff that's coming through me out to the world. We created it together, so thank you.