Keith Bulfin INterview
Arthur (2): [00:00:00] hi listeners. It's your host, Arthur Lonsdale. Thank you so much for tuning in. It's such a pleasure to have you here we've actually changed the podcast name from the Collective Institute of Ideas to Pitching Passion, which I'm really excited about. shorter name, more meaningful, less complicated, and hopefully something you can remember. We are so grateful to have you listening today.
I can't wait for you to listen to this episode about Keith. It's truly extraordinary. It's so. Interesting. In fact, We've actually made it into a two part episode,
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Arthur: Wow. Today everybody, we are immensely privileged to have Keith Boffin with us. Keith, I'm gonna be frank here. I've not, I don't think knowingly ever chatted to someone with such a fascinating live story working undercover for the DEA with drug cartels [00:01:00] experiencing prison working to help reduce human trafficking.
you've had so much experience, haven't you?
Keith: Yes, it's been in a, an incredible journey really when you think about it. I was just a banker. Running a small investment bank of my own and then had two South Americans who were using my bank for investment purposes and I got to know them a lot better than thought they were very wealthy.
Coffee plantation owners from South America. As it turned out, after I got a knock on the door one morning from the federal police, state police the FBI and the DEA and the Mexican federal police at the two bankers I was dealing with were the main bankers for the Mexican drug cartels. And actually were running the washing machines for the cartels, not only for Mexicans, but from the Colombians. And there were fugitives on [00:02:00] the run. And here I was managing their financial operations and they in turn had notified their colleagues in Mexico City that I was a very creative banker. And the US Authority saw this as an opening. Maybe we can get Keith to run a covert bank and be the the next architect of the Colombian and Mexican cartels. And that's exactly
Arthur: It's the most,
Keith: A bizarre
Arthur: yeah. So tell us what they meant by creative banker.
Keith: Basically I was able to move money around all, and I was quite good at that. So these two Mexicans had money in Chile and Argentina, and I was moving money to London, into Europe for them. And they then from the, they heard this word, creative banker from by Carlos Cabal, which is one of the Mexican cartel leaders that [00:03:00] Keith was a creative banker. I don't think they knew, realize what the term was, but they kept emphasizing you are a creative banker. And I think so in essence, I became the financial architect of the cartels because I was like, the JP Morgan of the Mexican cartels. So I was investing their money. With the approval of the US government and planning their investments and their strategies, which they thought was quite quite good.
Basically the cartels today are a major corporation. They're a very sophisticated group. They have enormous amount of money. And to give you some sort of idea, according to the US Department of Justice, the money that the five major families earned in 2025 were far greater than the two largest financial institutions in America, bank of America and JP Morgan [00:04:00] Chase. So that gives you an idea. They control the global market of cocaine and other drugs, and they have a global market. And with representation in Australia, Asia, and Europe. And in addition to that, they use AI technology, they use cyber crime, they use drones, they use robotics, to go through tunnels across the border. So they're very sophisticated, much more than what we see in the films and television. And I think
Gave me a bit of an
inspir
An insight in how they operated.
Arthur: it's like anything in life, there's just so many details and complexities that one doesn't understand if you're not really in that. But let's move back into story. There you are, this very bright, young chap working, you've set up an investment bank and.
join the dots me because so you end up meeting this guy. I think we can say the name [00:05:00]Carlos, is that right?
Meeting Carlos you end up in jail. Was that before you met Carlos or after?
Keith: it was after. So basically they said that, these two people are controlling financial operations. It would be ideal for you to become. The key to their financial operations. But what we're gonna do is we're going to, they're here under false passport, so we're gonna arrest 'em and throw them in prison, and we need you to befriend them. So the only way we can do that is we've gotta make you look like they've caused you a problem. And so , the plan was that I was going to befriend them and convince them that I could be trusted to be their next banker. I only saw one movie called Traffic.
All I knew about Mexican drug cartels. So I said, this won't happen, not in a million years. And they said, walk home through everything you've done over the last 20 years and we [00:06:00] will find something and we'll put you in prison with these two guys. And they did. And they found a valuation. I apparently had. Talked to the valuer by increasing the valuation and they said, this is what we're gonna charge you for. And I ended up being charged. And at the time I thought I could fight this. I got a team of lawyers, they cut off my money supply 'cause they were so convinced that they wanted me, to be this banker. So they froze all my bank accounts. They did everything they could to convince me that I take this wrong. And I kept saying, no, I would not. And then they said, your son is turning 18. We're gonna destroy his life if you don't play ball. That was the end of the story. So I couldn't afford to risk my son being charged and they would've come up with an any charge. And I know that it's very hard [00:07:00]to believe, but. Governments can manipulate a person for their own advantage. And this happens all the time and in, certainly in my case. So I ended up in inside a maximum security prison and a maximum security unit with 20 inmates, 17, never to be released, and three of us were bankers. And it wasn't until 60 Minutes did a program on me that they said, this doesn't stack up. This had to be arranged beforehand because if you had committed a
white collar offense, you'd be in a prison farm. No one in Australia has ever been in the maximum security prison for c committing the white collar offense.
And yet you are in a maximum security unit and with three bankers, three of you, two Mexicans and yourself. And then you come from prison and you go straight to San Diego and then you open up a covert bank. If you dot the [00:08:00] i's and crossed the T's is exactly a DEA set up for the very beginning. And then they produced a letter, which I didn't know, I didn't even know this letter existed until after I wrote the book. But they produced this letter from a Supreme Court judge in the letter. It contains confirmation that the Supreme Court judge and the authorities had a meeting with the American government, including the DEA, stated that I would be involved and recruited for this operation. And so 60 Minutes with their journalists and their investigating have managed to find that letter, and that, that letter today is, gold for me because it's written confirmation and that I not only work for the DEA, but also the home operation as far as a prison term is concerned, was all planted and manipulated in order to get me to work for the US government. And that's [00:09:00] it. And it was an incredible
In itself. It was an emotional journey in jail,
Arthur: because we know with the complexity of the deals that you are working on, so they got you in,,
Keith: Conspiracy, defraud over the valuations.
Arthur: Is that what does that mean in, in layman's terms and, did they have a case or was it complete fabrication? Because looking at it, you are the biggest asset for them in terms of being able to help them, get these people.
Keith: They said that you have to plead guilty to conspiracy to defraud over the valuation. So yeah, I went to court. But the conspiracy is two people, not one. So the conspiracy would be the valuer of myself. So they charged the valuer, but he went to court and the charge against him was dropped. So there was no conspiracy. It was a trumped up charge. And I ended up going to prison 'cause I had to plead guilty. And that's what [00:10:00] transpired. And then the point is that they made is from the Mexicans, you have to build an element of trust. Yes, I worked for them outside the system, but to be in the prison with them and to have a charge, which they could relate to, they understood it. And they thought, okay, this guy is one of us. And the, and that, that developed that charge. But I had to spend time, it was three years in a maximum security prison. So it wasn't and they promised me the world financially, but the point is that they said, you deliver these two guys on a silver plane and we'll give you $5 million, which was a lot of money way back then. But the thing is, I went to boarding school and you don't rat on friends. And I knew that I couldn't trust agencies. So I thought to myself, there's no way I would deliver these up. I've spent three years with them building [00:11:00] friendship, and I realized later that if things went pear shaped, these two people could save my life. And that's exactly what happened.
Arthur: It's the most extraordinary, sorry we're gonna jump ahead a bit. You've got this amazing friendship and then you are set up to, to bring the bad guys in as it were. You go to the us you get given a sort of fake family to, to live with and be with working undercover.
And you are, using your creative bright mind to, do all sorts for the cartels. And then it comes to a point where, and it's so fascinating when you tell your story about how you are. How close you are with your instinct and how you can't trust the cartels, but you can't trust the agencies because as they put it to you at one point, the life expectancy of working undercover for these foreign agency is [00:12:00] six months unless you are pulled out.
You are always having to triple plan. And it's so interesting the way you talk about this. Clearly of such a manner of detail, the way you map out all these different exit routes. For example you've talked about your time in Mexico and knowing all the routes out, out to the airport.
But this, let, we are now gonna move on to the point where the DA tries to get you to wear a wire?
So . So the DEA says to you, you've gotta wear or you refuse. And they say, fine, we're gonna get this other guy in the room. And of course you knowing that hold context, you know that the cartel don't let unknown members into a meeting anyway. Out comes this guy al really experienced, but you can see his head is not in gear.
He's not focused. He has no regard to hear about what you have to say about, the preparation. You've got a really bad feeling in your stomach about this. [00:13:00] The two of you go to this meeting and he gets quizzed about his investment banker knowledge about interest rate arbitrage.
He doesn't know anything. So they quickly figure out he's not a banker, despite fact he's saying he's a banker and then he orders a coffee in Spanish. And they're like, also, you are Colombian. And this extraordinary story whereby they end the meeting straight away, but then you still, you both still go to the meeting later that day, by which point he gets a gun and sadly there's a gun, there's a gun fight.
He gets killed. And you then have to escape to America with your family, quote unquote your family. And then the cartel end up finding you. And you at this point Keith it's remarkable. You reflect on this state whereby the cartels, they'll come to your, after your family if you've crossed them.
But if you come to them, then they're likely to leave your family [00:14:00] alone. So you come back to Mexico and you say to him, listen, I will protect, you and you. But just leave my family alone. I've had a few of your backs. Can we call it peace? And it basically seems like that's what's happened.
Would you agree with that?
Keith: Yes they have a policy where, exactly as you just said, if they keep chasing you, they will not only eliminate you, but your whole family and extended family, whereas you go back to them to face the music, so to speak, then they'll execute you and not your family. But in this case, I always had a feeling I couldn't trust the agencies, there's always jealousy within the agencies and also you have one or two agents who are moles for the cartels.
So you gotta be very careful. The deputy director of the DEA said to me, we do have MOS within our organization. We just don't [00:15:00] know who they are. So you gotta be careful. So every time I went to Mexico, there was a 25% chance my operation would been exposed, and as a result I was virtu, virtually walking into a trap. So I couldn't trust them. So I play chess, but I also had a lot of knowledge on how the SAS operate, particularly the British SAS, they plan in a plan every operation, they look at what could go wrong and if it does go wrong. What do you do? And every time I did an operation, I planned my exit strategies. I planned where the meeting is. I planned if you know all the scenarios that could go wrong and what I can do, if it did, and I'd go through my head. So if I had a meeting like today at 10 o'clock, I would be up at four. I'd be go to the meeting place, I would look at all the exit strategies and I'll plan [00:16:00] my move.
I'd go through the whole conversation in a hundred times so I knew exactly what I had to say and what I had to do. And I'd plan for everything that could possibly go wrong. And I think that's what saved my life and ended up working. For the cartels for over seven years, most of the people that go undercover, particularly from law enforcement agencies, are virtually cowboys. They wanna be party with the the criminals. They want to socialize with them. They want to drink, take the drugs party with the girls. I never did. I was a professional from day one. I kept saying to the cartels, I'm your banker. I don't wanna socialize as I'm your banker. I'm here to give you investment advice and also to bank your money. And they respected that. But at the same time, I kept thinking to myself, if things go wrong, I think the Mexicans are the ones that would. Protect me. [00:17:00] In other words, they, in turn, I had to think to myself, I have to give something to the DEA so there's no real issues with them, but at the same time, protect the major players in Mexico. And that's what I did. So when it went pear shaped and I was executed, I came back to Mexico and I faced the music with them and they in turn decided it was a 50 50, 'cause it was, the Colombians involved 50 50 whether I'd be executed or not. And at the end of the day, they decided that I hadn't exposed them, I hadn't given them up, they hadn't lost any assets, and they decided that they would let me live.
And today they protect me, which is good. But it's.
Arthur: And can you talk about what you did give, because, to keep the, amazing , you managed to play on two teams, in a sense. What did do can you talk about the things that you did give to the da.
Keith: It's [00:18:00] basically in terms of small cartels that have, sold drugs, so you end up giving information in terms of where the drugs are being distributed and you also, you give up certain assets that they own across the border and where they transfer the money. But from the DE a's perspective, what they wanted was more encyclopedia of the financial operations of the cartels.
And that I could provide, how they moved their money that they used an offshore bank, what. Offshore entities. They used, how they set up shell companies, where they invested their money, they bought stocks and shares real estate. They bought paintings. They bought companies. They were like the mafia in America who initially were in prostitution and gambling, but then expanded into real enterprises, real businesses, which could generate. And they also then educated [00:19:00] their, and the new family members, end up going to University Guinea MBAs and taking over that side of the business, legitimate businesses. And that's what the cartels do now. They run legitimate businesses as well as their criminal activities as well. It's a massive business.
Arthur: And Keith, Can you talk about survival and, what are the human learnings that we can have from your experience? Certainly what seems relevant is planning and, being obsessed around preparation. But , there must be things that
Helped you just by the way you are wired, right? Being aware of your surroundings, having a gut feel, reading people. Give us a sense of what some like pragmatic takeaways that you have.
Keith: I have two assets which the American government recognize. One is face recognition. If I go into a restaurant, I can scan the people [00:20:00] and then walk out and then identify certain people, a day later. Second was navigation ability. So if you blindfolded me and took me to a location, I could virtually work out exactly where I was. But I kept going back to how I survived was one is mentally, I swim every day and I swim and exercise. I keep myself fit. I realize that a lot of people will get in my business working undercover. They have not any stress emotional journey. They face fear. I seem to. Able to survive that I'm able to deal with my own demons in my own way. And I think I deal with that by swimming, swim in the ocean, the Cold Sea every day. And if I get 'em emotional at all, I do it in the water, so what I saw and what I witnessed through my journey as an undercover agent is, it's difficult to [00:21:00] comprehend. And I think the American agencies they do offer support in terms of, psychologists and that type of thing. But I think in my case. I have to deal with myself. I, the term in imprisonment the working undercover facing deaf having a gun pointed to your head being told that you are an undercover agent and you're trying to convince them, the person pointing the gun at you, you are not. But then, I try and. Put, have it at departments, basically working through how I'm gonna manage this. I even think about this even before the operation and even having a meeting with government agencies. I try and work out what they're gonna ask, how I'm gonna be ambushed and how I'm gonna cope. And then when I do have emotional journeys, I think, okay, I am emotional here, but there are people far worse off than I am. So I've gotta think, okay, I'm better off, [00:22:00] I'm alive, I'm healthy. So if someone's facing cancer or fatty and battle over, other tragic within their family and their life, how do they cope?
So I've gotta be stronger than they are. So that's how I do it,
Arthur: Keith, I'm thinking sometimes in life people have news that hits them and that can be really scary. Maybe it's. Losing a job, but then other things, other fears can be a bit more long term. People can be anxious. Let's say, people who are quite young and they have financial troubles, then they're struggling to get a job to sustain living where they live or they, they have, or maybe they have like confidence issues.
How, do you have any view on how these people can deal with those challenges?
Keith: Yeah, I do. I know people face mental health issues, but I think, and people face suicide as well. And I often think, I'm probably the [00:23:00] perfect person they could come and talk to 'cause of what I've gone through. Being in that prison, being interviewed by FBI and the DEA 'cause you do, you have to do a lie detector test over every operation. And at the same time, being in a room, having guns point out my head and being told I'm an undercover agent for the DEA and by the time I count 10, you're gonna be executed. I face all those. So I know there's a, and I've met so many psychologists and met people who deal with situations, but none of them have actually experienced their own life. If you get a psychologist or someone who's an expert in mental health. They've got the knowledge and the academic ability, but they've never been in the situation themselves. A lot of them have not. And you gotta be in the, in my situation, you gotta face the elements yourself. How do you handle that? And you gotta be [00:24:00] able to talk to someone how I dealt with it. And then I'm in a position to help them. For example, in the Middle East working for the CIA and the FBI tours, there's a girl and myself. So we got caught by militia in just on the border Syria and Jordan. So we were captured for two, two days.
And they did things to us, to her and to my soul. So when we were rescued and the female agent with me was in a fetal position, she was hysterical, and I was going through my. Demons as well at the same time. But I spent my time trying to comfort her and get her relaxed and talk to her. And then when we got back to the hotel, the American government took her and stuck her on the aircraft and flew her to Washington and put her in a such, into a hospital and gave her all the [00:25:00] support. And in my case, they sent me back to the Middle East to do operations. So they never gave me a, didn't look at me and said okay, you are facing the same what you've just experienced in the last two days of being in captivity. We need you to see a psychologist. They'd just said, no, the best thing you can do is go back to work. And that's what I did. And she's never recovered. Never recovered. And I never had anyone come and sit down with me and talk through the issues. I dealt with it myself and I think. In terms of you and I keep thinking about what other people have experienced worse than me. And I kept saying, I'm better off, I've survived.
I'm healthy, I'm okay. And there are times where, you've lost your job. You're down on your luck. You've got $2 in the bank account and you really don't know how you're gonna cope. But the best way about coping is sit back and say, [00:26:00] I'm healthy. I'm, I've got abilities, so I need to get up off the sofa and I need to be able to get on with my life. And, ring me if you like. I, I think and this people who suicidal, like there was a young guy in prison who was being released. He was a drug dealer not a drug dealer and drug taker. And he wanted to impress the parole board. So I helped him do his tie and we practiced that.
I talked to him, he got his parole, but two days later he, he committed suicide. So the prison authority said, oh, but we gave more the right treatment. They don't understand. 'cause the people within the prison system, within the justice system and people outside think they know what they're doing, but it's all academic. They can't relate. And this young man who was 21 years of age, he'd been in prison for over [00:27:00] two years, released and two, yet two days later, he committed suicide. Where the thing is that the, I always think the wrong people are addressing the issue. So if someone's got a mental health, got problems with suicide attempts, you need to talk to someone who's been through the same experience. And can and has come out the other side. And in, in my case, I think I can relate to a lot of these people and help them solve their problems. And I think just a matter of talking through what I experienced, how I cope with it, I've never had anyone I had psychologists in prison, but outside dealing with working undercover for 23 years, I haven't had anyone, not a single person.
Arthur: Keith improving the relationship with ones inner A critic for example, I mean you like when you are really up, she's creek. There [00:28:00] mu there must be a big importance in having a voice of compassion with you that is there saying, you're gonna be fine.
You've got this, is that true or not? And did you feel like that kind of thing can help people?
Keith: It, it does. You need someone who can listen, but at the same time, you don't want someone you need to listen to what the pro the person's problem is, and then you need to talk about how you, the problem is not a big issue. And you need to, like today I'm, I'm a patrol member of Lifesaving I rescued a girl from drowning in what, four weeks ago? It was 800 meters offshore. And she was going under, and she was a triathlete, but she had a panic attack. So it was a matter of swimming to her, putting her on her back and talking to her. And in talking to her, controlling her and bringing her in and talking to, about her life. So [00:29:00] she started to recover from the panic attack. That's just one instance, for example. But there are many other instances of similar I'm just trying to think of situations where people have been suicidal and you need to talk to 'em about their journey and then talk a little bit about your own journey and make them feel more positive about their life and what their opportunities are. And like I teach another
Arthur: And what they, and they, and what they do have.
Keith: Yeah. Like I take a girl swimming once a week and she lost her leg to cancer. So up it's up to the. Up to the hip, basically. And she's been battling cancer. So she swims two kilometers, but it's all about her mental preparation. So talking to her and, telling her she can do this and tell her that we can do, five fifties, five 20 fives and she does this work.
And then talking about her [00:30:00] issues that she has for the week, how we can cope with that. She talks about work issues, how she's not getting support for getting a new artificial leg. So you talk about what are the problems she's going through and you understand what those problems are, and then give her a guidance on how she can overcome that. And so I'm her candle. That's what it's.
Arthur: Keith that's a, that's so lovely that you do that, and thanks so much for sharing. What I want to hit on though is your voice, Keith's voice with Keith because. I don't know what that looked like when you were really young and what that looked like when you were going through the most traumatic or tense moments undercover.
But surely, you have got that place where you are on your own and you can talk yourself into a calm place to [00:31:00] get through that chaos and that internal voice has been important for you in dealing with chaos.
Keith: It is. It, it's ironic, how you can be in a situation. When I'm in a difficult situation, I seem to become very calm and I though I'm talking to the person concerned. I still have this sort of inner peace within me. If I'm trying to work out, I'm talking, but at the same time I'm trying to work out how I'm gonna cope with this situation.
And I try and go through how difficult, what I'm in and how I'm gonna get out of this. And that's how I deal with it. I think you give you another instance of when you carry out an operation sometimes you are covering up. So when you get debriefed by the FBI and the DEA, you are covering up on certain aspects. So the FBI and the DEA want to know exactly what [00:32:00] transpired. And you don't want to give them exactly because you are protecting yourself. And that's, and you gotta try and it's like walking through a minefield. 'cause they're gonna ask you a set of questions, they've wired you up and you've gotta be able to. Lie basically on that de on that test. And that's quite daunting, but I seem to be able to plan for the, because I don't go into a meeting unprepared. I'm completely prepared for what's gonna take place, what if scenarios. So I work out the questions they're gonna ask and I work out the answers I'm gonna give.
, I don't try and get anxious, there are situations occurring. I think I've gotta be calm and I'm in is a difficult situation. I've gotta work my way through this. And the best way is to be calm, be rational, and think ahead of, how I'm gonna cope with this and how I'm gonna walk away from [00:33:00] it. And that's what I'm saying in terms of my cancer survivor or people who are drowning and you're talking to them. People facing, suicide is talking to them, understanding their situation, but talking to 'em about what I went through and related to what they're going through. And as a result, that makes a difference. And I emphasize that a lot. If you're going through cancer, the best person you can deal with is a cancer survivor. A person who's dealt with it themselves, and the person who's gone broke, gone to jail, come out and try to get his arms back together. You need to talk to someone who's had that same experience. 'cause the people with the same experience can relate how they cope with it, how they, got back on their horse and were able to, ride off into the sunset. Every day is a challenge. For most
Arthur: Yeah.
Keith: and so you and whatever the challenges are, you [00:34:00] just get dressed, go out that front door, feel confident in yourself and just say, I can do this.
Whatever the challenge you're facing, I can do this. I can accept a challenge. I can do it.
Arthur: Keith, in dealing with these worlds, was it quite confusing at times when you'd be working with people who would commit very ruthless crimes? Was it conflicting because you'd see their good nature as well? And also just the complexity of their systems and structures that they might , have grown up with.
Keith: I think so. But it's like a agencies and police and law enforcement there in elements, they'll manipulate you and, because it's a game for them and they'll lie
and cheat agencies do criminals do exactly the same. And you are with a criminal who is committed. Atrocities, but you've gotta think, okay, I'm dealing with this person. You've [00:35:00] gotta put that aside. Leave that. 'cause if you're dealing with someone who can snap their fingers and execute you on the spot, then you're not gonna be able to focus. 'cause that's all you're focusing on. You gotta be, go beyond that. So often with these criminal groups, I'd just start talking about family. Say what? How's your family talk about their childhood? Talk about what interests 'em and try and talk about other things and try and understand the person you're dealing with. And he's ruthless. These people are the Mexican cartels and the most ruthless people in the world even the Russian mafia are scared of them.
When you first meet them, I'm trembling with fear. I'm shaking, I'm perspiring. And the Mexicans will cartel leader will smell you. And they say in Spanish, I can smell his fear. And if they smell your fear, they then trust you. That's the message I got. So [00:36:00] I didn't have to act that part, that act that came automatically to me shaking with fear and perspiring facing them. But I still could have a conversation with them, still talk about, they'd be talking about moving money or how they invest and they talk about if they lose any money, the consequences are quite severe. So they're mentioning this to you so you don't focus on that aspect. I say moving my expertise, doing the right investment is my expertise. And then I would talk about how good the investment will be, but people do make mistakes. And I said, and you can't go after a person who's made a mistake 'cause this mis money and investments are manipulated by markets. So if you really wanna go after everybody, talk about how the economy works. And I earned their trust. 'cause they kept saying to me, you're a real professional banker, aren't you? And I talk about [00:37:00] the consequences of market. I didn't just say, yes, give me the money and I'll bank it. Where are you gonna bank it? How are you gonna bank it?
Keith: I talk about the investments and say, why aren't you investing into these sort of type of activity?
So branch out of your criminal activity. I wouldn't say criminal, we say branch out of your current activities and invest for the long term. And I, over a period of time, I earned their respect. I knew who I was dealing with. As you are with terrorists, you and human traffickers [00:38:00] who talking about money, making money, not worrying about the human beings or the girls that are selling for the sick trade industry. They're not worried about them, they're just worried. It's just a product to them. All they want to do is make money and have control. There's this feeling of control and money. So what you're going to do is say to them, talk about how they can invest their money, about their investments, how they can, they can't really control the investments and try and switch their mind off what they're currently doing.
Arthur: , It's just completely focusing on their interest, right? It could be like their kids, their world their money, all about, what's gonna work for them. Was there ever a time when you met someone, maybe they were on the periphery of the activities you were around, or maybe they were quite central where they'd done something so awful or they behaved in such a way that you wanted almost like a personal.
Vendetta against them and that you achieve that to some degree.
Keith: [00:39:00] A absolutely. You face that. Cartel leaders. I know, he used to go out and shoot people, I need to be entertained today, so go and find someone for me to shoot and execute. but you're dealing with that. And at the time you feel like, pulling out a weapon and shooting him as well.
But then I think to myself, that's not gonna get us anywhere. So I'm looking at a ruthless animal, so to speak, but I've gotta treat him as a human being. And if I can look at him as a human being, I can have a sensible conversation. Now, he may not be sensible coming back to you and you meet people in life, in prison as you have outside the prison.
People who have kidnapped. Two girl one particular person kidnapped, two girls tied one to raped, both of them tied one to a tree. And while he took the other girl down to the river, raped her, then strangled her to death, and then kept saying to the other girl, tied to the tree, I'm coming back for you. You can imagine what [00:40:00] she was going through. And then he went back to the tree and did exactly the same. He killed them. And you look at that person, the justice for him is stringing him up for the highest pole, but if you gotta deal with that person, you gotta deal with him in a different way.
You gotta think he's a human being and I've gotta forget about his atrocities. I've gotta deal with this person and this is how I'm gonna deal with him. Talk about something that's more of interest to him and you're, try and have a conversation, be trying to get information from him and that's what you gotta do. It's extremely difficult.
Arthur: Keith, , you have such a unique insight and life experience. And I, it's so interesting that you're spending your time today in trying to, reduce human trafficking, such a big issue and feels like it's not talked about enough. Given the sheer scale, OOO, of the challenges there, has there been a win for you?
The story where you've taken someone very bad down and that's brought [00:41:00] you great sense of satisfaction?
Keith: I think, it's very hard to change the mentality of some of these people. Extremely difficult. The satisfaction to me is rescuing someone from human trafficking, from a human trafficking cell. And it's, and I think difference between myself and people who deal with victims of trafficking is I've actually been inside a human trafficking cell.
I've seen how they operate and have also dealt with one particular girl in turning her into an informant for me, and then she's gone back inside. To give me the information so we could try and rescue a lot of these girls. And the experience of this girl, and she wouldn't cooperate with us until such time as we rescued her mother. She was a single, just her and her mother. Her mother was in a village in Russia, so we had to get the mother out of the village in Russia, into [00:42:00] Germany. And once we had the her in Germany, this girl then put a life on the line to give us information and were able to rescue her. The satisfaction I had resing her from the drug traffick here, and a mum and that, that was good. Sorry.
Arthur: Yeah.
Keith: Yeah. Here's what, but you deal with it.
Arthur: Yeah,
Keith: Sorry about that.
Arthur: Keith, no. Please don't apologize. And I
The world's a funny place. We, everyone has their different journey and we all help each other and in different ways. People have very varying degrees in which they can help and [00:43:00] which ways in which they're involved in society. clearly like today you talk about a lot and there's a lot you can't talk about and navigating these things.
I want to touch soon on. You know how you make sure Keith's doing good. But before that, before we move on to Keith, how do you, because you know so many people, they don't have a purpose, they don't have a skill set necessarily. They haven't found their purpose. Rather, you are a man who you've changed lives.
You've been through such crazy times. We could talk for weeks and not cover your journey and the sort of extraordinary tales that involves, but there's so much value you can bring to people. What's it like now? Because there must be so many people who want your help on projects.
It might be tracking, money that's been stolen perhaps, to so many different things, human trafficking cases. How does it work for you? , Is it frustrating that you don't have [00:44:00] enough time in the day to be involved in everything?
Keith: Yes, I agree with what you just said. I think you made a comment before on human trafficking. So I spoke to celebrities in Hollywood in regard to that and it's taboo. They don't really want to talk about human trafficking and I think, it is something we should talk about and to get support for human trafficking is extremely difficult. Because last year alone in 2025, according to the US Department of Justice, $13 billion was money earned by human trafficking gangs. And there's so many people sold into human trafficking. I like to do a lot more, but you need enormous amount of support, not only for government, but from individuals to talk about a bit more about human trafficking and the consequences of that. But yeah, and helping people find money. I get the odd call, I've lost money in cryptocurrency, [00:45:00] and or been scammed. But the thing is that with banks and financial institutions, they just tick boxes. They really have. If you think about it, one twin dollars or more is washed through the global banking system. So from law enforcement agencies and from compliance officers and people involved in anti-money laundering and within the financial institutions, all they do is tick boxes. Banks, at the end of the day, make money, make profit. So as long as they're ticking the boxes, they're doing the right thing. But in terms of sophistication, money laundering activities it's a big business and people are very good at it. And so if you've got a $50 million, you wanna wash it through the banking system it's easily done and people are doing it. And I think criminal groups today have become not only so sophisticated and become [00:46:00] corporations, they're quite they're quite buzzer about it, like driving the Ferraris, buying the $12 million homes living in Dubai.
Semi protected by corrupt officials. And yet the average man in the street, strugglings losing money and you think how do you fix, how do you fix this problem? And you know what I'm doing right now? I'm studying course called global Financial Intelligence. So basically it's just like a certificate course, but it gives you modules of what, how you can become a very sophisticated compliance anti-money laundering person. There are so many courses out there for people in anti-money laundering compliance courses, but they really don't understand how money is moved around the world. And so with criminal groups, particularly in the Middle East gangs, we operate the drug and the tobacco industry in Australia we're [00:47:00] the same as what happens in Scandinavia, it's in Middle Eastern groups, as it is in Germany. It's basically out of Turkey. But criminal groups today are earning a massive amount of money in terms of prostitution, drugs, human trafficking, they're the main key.
And tobacco, of course. And and all you can hear is government officials and government agencies say we need more resources, more people. They don't need more resources and more people what the law enforcement need is the right people. The people with the right skills. And what banks could do is actually change the way where criminal money is flowed through the bank by important, employing the right people who understand the how money is transferred through the banking system. And I'll give you an example. There's one large bank here in Australia that has 1200 people in its financial crime division, other than the [00:48:00] executive director. She said to me that other than herself, no one else in her department has 1% of my experience in order to detect any money laundering activities.
Not 1% of my experience. And she said, I have basically 10% of your experience. So what banks are doing is employing people. Who say they've got all the academic qualifications, but they can't detect any financial fraud. And the worst case about it is we've got, like Jeffrey Epstein, we've got pedophiles who are making money through trial pornography, and the banks are allowing those monies to be washed through the system. One of the major banks here was fine, enormous amount of money for allowing, child pornography revenue to flow through the bank. So the point is from the law enforcement background and [00:49:00] from compliance from financial institutions, unfortunately we just don't employ the right people.
And I'm not saying anything against the people who are employed. They have the academic skills, they have the skills, but unfortunately they're just. Don't have the real life experience and I'm no, no disrespect to them. They're very capable of what they're doing, but they don't really know what they're looking for because they've never really experienced, it's all from textbook or examples.
It's like police and fraud. It's like they give, the police can't detect a fraud investigation unless they've got pieces of the jigsaw. So they need to be given half of the jigsaw. If they're given half of the jigsaw, they can then basically put the picture together. What intelligence organizations are given is one or two pieces of the jigsaw. In my case is I'm not given [00:50:00] any pieces of the jigsaw. I'm told what the problem is. Can you find one piece of the jigsaw and maybe build it to a picture? So that's the difference. This is a scenario. Can you
find one piece of the jigsaw? So from the banks and law enforcement, they need half of the jigsaw completed before they can finish it. So if they get half of the jigsaw, they can then finish the jigsaw and pat themselves on the back. Intelligence Mossad, CIA, British intelligence, MI five, MI six, get one or two pieces of jigsaw over a period of time. They'll put it together matter. You ask this is, we've got a scenario, we've got no pieces of jigsaw. Can you put that picture together? That's my job. That's the
difference. And that's who?
.[00:51:00]
Keith: Colombian and the Mexican cartels use, they find that person who can actually put the jigsaw together, Russian mafia will do the same. So criminal organizations have enormous cash flow, are prepared to pay that money and prepared to get the right people. We've got a scenario, can you give us two pieces of that jigsaw? And if you can solve the problem from the police and from the banks. They need to pay. You just need one person who can build a small team, but you are able to, you gotta get the right people and then pay them enormous amount of money.
But at the same time, if you've got 1200 to 1500 in your financial crime division, you end up employing 50 who actually know what they're doing.
They'll protect the
bank, and the bank will save themselves millions of dollars. And I'm just giving [00:52:00] you an example. I've been on both sides
from running a, in a boutique investment bank and also dealing with ask that, put that, find that one piece of the jigsaw as a professor of Georgetown University said to me, and I provide lectures from them time to time. Keith we know if you've given one piece of the jigsaw, you'll put the picture together. In some cases, I don't need one piece of that jigsaw, I just need to be
told what the scenario is. Given time I'll,
come up with that jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Hey, listeners, don't worry. The story does not end here. We've got another episode coming up in the future. All you need to do is subscribe to hear more.
Speaker 7: Hey, listeners, you'll be able to hear part two of this episode coming out soon. All you need to do is subscribe and you'll get notified when the next episode comes out. [00:53:00] Thanks so much for listening.
