Hair stylist to the Stars Greg Hill on the world of hair and how to make the most of yours

Greg: Welcome, listeners to Pitching Passion. We're so excited to have Greg Hill. Greg, expert of all things hair greg, different worlds really get us to think about different things and are such amazing vehicles.

Learning about ourselves, what's going on in the world, people. And it's such a privilege to have you here. You've been into all things hair since growing up outside of London. And you moved to Wales. And currently based as a master stylist in Josh Wood Salon.

You cut people's hair who you can't talk about today. Let's be honest. Not very many. Not very many, but we know you work a lot with the entrepreneur Trin Woodall. Indeed, yes. Icon, force, and you're known for a few things. I get briefed about people. What are some interesting talking points?

One of the clear points is you know how to get volume with hair. really moving, looking at your content online, you educate people. You come to their homes. work in Josh Wood Salon.

There's a lot you do, and clearly you're so passionate about it, making [00:01:00] people look great, feel great. It's one thing, having the execution part for people, but it's really another thing explaining that. And you're a trained opera singer, right?

I am a lapsed opera singer, yes I trained for about 10 years and did some work as a singer. Opera is a notoriously difficult profession to get in and through, I was a late starter.

I started at 29 in earnest, and by the time I got to about 39, maybe 41, it was time to, reconsider my options, I went from being a young-ish guy with lots of ambition and stars in my eyes about the idea of being a singer. I had hairdressing as my fallback position, and also I had hairdressing to pay my way through all my training.

Because to be an opera singer takes, to just hit the ground running as a part of the workforce- Yeah ... in the world of opera, it takes about 10 years of preparation, and no one pays you for that [00:02:00] at all. So you need a job, a really good job to or, s- someone to, to fund you while you're training to do all of that.

It's a lot of lo- it's a lot of long, hard graft, and very few people get to the pinnacle. Yeah. So hairdressing was there because I'd been cutting hair all my life. It was there supporting me through that, and it's the thing I returned to as a full-time stylist when I decided to hang up my singing boots.

And are you attached to that world as a c- consumer, as it were? Do you listen to a lot of- To opera? ... classical music? I sing- Or sing privately? I sing for my dog. I sing in the shower- Yeah ... for the neighbors. I sing in the park when I'm walking the dog. I sing in the car. I sing when I feel like no one is listening to me.

I find that I'm least inhibited and I sing the best when I don't think anyone can hear what I'm doing. Yeah. The moment someone hear, I, I feel that someone's there, I recoil. And it's something that I I [00:03:00] never really got over. Stage fright is something you have to get over when you are trained to perform.

And with opera, you train to sing you you're training your body to do something at its absolute apex, like a gymnast or an athlete, but you're a musician and an actor at the same time. And and it's all about your body being free and able to produce that sound. And the moment any tension comes in, diaphragm, gets stiff and it becomes a fight.

There are very few performers out there who sing totally naturally and freely and without tension. And if you wanna be a great performer, you have to absolutely learn how to do that, and I can only do that when I think no one is listening, so you won't be recoiling, hopefully, into our chair today.

No. But I've had the privilege of having my hair cut by you yes .. Can you put us into the mind of the process? You meet someone new. - Because there's a lot at stake for them, right?

If hair, if a haircut goes [00:04:00] badly- ... that's a high cost. So there's a huge trust element. And then you've got the educational element. Sometimes people don't know how to explain what they want. So you've gotta work that out. Yes. And then there's other part of, he says, having never cut anyone's hair, but the relationship side give us, a sense of what it's like,

 there are lots of things, and as you were laying them out, I realized, gosh, yes, you do think about all of these things, and it sounds like a lot, and it all happens after a while automatically. There's the technical aspects. You need to know, you need to be well-trained, and you need to know things like, what is that hair's potential?

What will it do? What won't it do? What will suit that person? What will suit their face shape, their frame, their lifestyle? What am I able to create? So there's all that, but then you have to put that into context, or into the [00:05:00] context of the person in front of you. What do they want out of it? How are they going to manage it?

Are they going to feel like they've got something they can cope with? So all of that sort of comes together, and it comes together fairly naturally when you've got some experience. The whole thing about education, I never saw myself as a teacher. I've never actively taught before, but when I started doing social media work, I started doing social media work because when I stopped being a professional singer who happened to hairdresser, to make ends meet, I needed to become a full-time hairdresser again. I need- and I needed to market myself. So I did that using the social media. So I put up videos of just makeovers, and the algorithm went, " Nah, who cares?"

But then when we went into recording the consultation process, that's when people started to take note. And I think that happened because people could relate to the consultation process. They could relate to what people were saying, "My hair's not working [00:06:00] for me. I've been told by my hairdresser I'm a non-starter."

And my response usually is, "There's always something you can do. Let's investigate. Let's- ... have a look." And so that I found to actually... That's just something I fell into a bit, the whole thing about teaching whilst cutting and styling. That was a b- a happy accident. When people come to you everyone's got such different hair, and your big philosophy is, if you understand your hair, then you can know how to maximize it, right?

 A little bit of knowhow goes a long way. I had a response from somebody on social media over the weekend. I did a video where the lady said at the beginning, "I want expensive looking hair." And her hair was fine and straight. So I showed her how she could build volume and movement into her hair, and her hair went from this to this.

And somebody said, "Yeah, that's all very well, but I'm not gonna do that every day." And my response to that [00:07:00] was, "You don't have to, but a little bit of knowhow will take you a long way in terms of if you know how to do it, then you can create it for yourself whenever you want. You know that what's possible, and you know how you can make the most of your hair, make an occasion out of your hair.

Do something for yourself that's going to make you feel great, make you feel feminine, sexy ready for an occasion, whatever it might be." And if you can arm people with that and show them what's possible and show them how accessible that possibility is, then that's the best thing a hairdresser can do for their client.

One can't help but just think about, someone being recommended to, you and then having their hair investigated- ... styled. Some people have bigger challenges with their hair than others. When people feel amazing in themselves- ... it's amazing what that can do to them. And, I'll bet there are so many times that you help people [00:08:00] discover how great their hair can be. And process of getting there, but also seeing their hair at those new heights trying new things, getting that confidence.

Can you give us a sense of how much a great haircut or style or process can change people and give to people?

I'm often surprised when people express great gratitude or they express that, " What you have just done has changed my life." Sometimes you sometimes you hear that, and, from time to time, you get it right. . And maybe you're the first person, the first hairdresser, to really get it right for them, and that person is overjoyed. That's so gratifying. I enjoy that. And it surprises me sometimes because the more experienced you become, the more easily you start to read hair, and you start to know what's possible and how you can help someone make more of it.

And it's always about going back to fundamentals. But sometimes people just don't know what the [00:09:00] fundamentals are. And if you show it to them or give it to them, and they feel... I don't know, do they feel more like themselves? I hope so. I hope to make people feel more like themselves, make them into a version of themselves that they like being.

And then we're just talking about their hair, and then, of course, there's the rest. There's makeup, there's clothing- ... there's grooming, ev- every aspect of grooming. Let's say you've done someone, hair, and they're so thrilled by it. Yeah. How do you think it can affect people having this huge sense of confidence in their hair?

What does it change in their wo- in their world?

You'd have to ask them ... but no for sure it'll affect their work, like how they walk into a bar or- ... how their, maybe it will probably change how they dress. They're like, "Oh, wow I'm looking great. I've got my hair-" Yeah

"looking wonderful. I've, I'm gonna make the extra effort with what I'm wearing now." Sure. "I've gotta do Greg's work justice." I don't think they owe me anything. But if they feel then impelled to [00:10:00]take themselves more seriously or feel that they've g- been given a key to something that should always have been theirs, that's wonderful.

And that's it. That's all you're doing. You'll give... You're make- You're helping someone make the best of what they have. And if someone hasn't before, and they've never felt seen, because sometimes, the relationship- With a hairdresser, it's not just about what you give them in terms of a new look.

You are seeing them, you're seeing their potential, you're seeing the potential in them. And and maybe that makes people feel good. That person sees me. That person is subscribing to how I present and therefore how I feel. And there's something loving about that, isn't there? It's an act of...

Oh, I don't want to sound all like religious or, deeply spiritual about it, but being human is about connecting with each other. It's about connecting with ourselves. And the better we connect [00:11:00]with ourselves, the more we can connect with each other openly and without fear,

We grow up with inhibitions. And with insecurities. So it could be you just make someone feel a little bit more secure, and maybe that's a great thing. It's a small thing, but it can also be a great thing.

Yeah. And that person steps out of the salon into the street with a, a new confidence in their stride. A new sense of, maybe a heightened self-confidence. . And that's always nice. Confidence seems to come from all sorts of places. Unfortunately, for various reasons, there's still a lot of in- insecurity on how people look- ... how they feel. Even though, some people look absolutely fantastic. But how attractive it is when someone has got that confidence, and how it's so much through- almost like an internal thing. Yeah ... and it can also impact how they look as well. ', Would you say 95% of the people who you style for is women? Yeah, I would say [00:12:00] maybe 80- 80, 90% is women. Yeah. But men too.

People will be very open about their lives to you the things that irrationally hold them back Are them themes that you end up wanting to push against? Or, common things you end up sharing to someone privately

that you just feel should be a a message that should be pushed harder to people generally? I imagine that a lot of women, and some men, who have a good relationship with their hairdresser- ... might say that actually it's a unique relationship. First of all, a hairdresser touches your head.

Who else touches your head, apart from your parents when you're a child- ... or your partner as a grown-up? Someone is touching your head for up to an hour. And and it's all with a view towards how we're going to make you look, how we're going to make your hair look. And usually the hairdresser is asking their client, "How are you?

What's going on with [00:13:00] you?" And it could be as prosaic as, the film I saw at the weekend, or the night out I had, or it could be a little more profound than that. I think hairdressers often play the role of amateur psychologist. Because you give the client a safe place to just talk a little bit more openly, and maybe people are slightly more disarmed because they're having their hair touched.

There's an intimacy. Someone touching your hair like this, it's intimate. It's lovely. It feels good. You relax, and this person's asking how you are. Maybe you're more likely to tell them how you really are. Totally. Rather than, the kind of, What actually happened on the weekend.

Yeah. Yeah. What really happened. Cut, cut. Yeah. And I love... I enjoy that part of my job a lot. I enjoy the... I enjoy having a really good head-to-head with somebody for an hour, finding out about them. And seeing how people's lives evolve. It must be so extraordinary.

How, having... trini's how you've been cutting for, what, 14 years? I've worked with Trini [00:14:00]now for about a decade. Maybe- Okay ... 11 or 12 years. Okay. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Words not mine, but wonderfully touch on what you've been talking about, which is, hair stylists see people at their most vulnerable.

They hear everything. They understand. Trust deeply. They see patterns across thousands of people. Can you think of two messages, that you generally feel like people need to hear?

Based on all your interactions

I think there's always two things going on. There's always the look that we're aiming for- ... and how that look is gonna make them feel and that look has... What you're aiming for has to be agreed upon. Sometimes people come in with very strong ideas, and they say, "I want." "To... I want to take my look in this direction."

And you go, "Yeah, great. Let's do it." Other people come in and say, "Ugh, I look like a wreck. What are you gonna do with me?" And then you can make suggestions. And then when you're doing that, it often helps to have visual prompts. So I always say to people, "Bring in photographs." [00:15:00] Even if it's just the way that one piece of someone's hair works-

That can be helpful. So there's the the agreements and the direction and the execution of the look, and that's great, and hopefully that person's gonna like it, and it's gonna make them- ... feel it's right for now. And it might change in the future, or we might stick with it forever.

So there's that. The other bit is what we were just talking about, it's the kind of amateur psychologist. And it's not that I want to say, tell me your life history." Sometimes I am interested. Yeah. But but it's about how are we gonna get along? How are we gonna get along for this next hour?

I'm cutting your hair, and if you wanna sit in silence and read, that is absolutely your your right and your... And it c- the hour can be anything you want. But I'm curious, and I like to ask people about themselves- ... and find out about them, and and it's a nice part of it. There are some people whose hair I've been doing for many years, and I've learned lots about them that maybe, you [00:16:00] could call it a close friendship.

But also, I'm a professional who might be working with a client in a way where, clients can feel vulnerable with you- ... because you know you're helping to build their look. You're part of their toilette. And so the int- the intimacy that can grow from that can feel very real, and it can feel like a friendship.

 when I was much younger, I started to believe that friendships and professional relationships could mix, and they mix to an extent. But I have to always remember that and I think hairstylists have to remember that you're here as a service provider. And as much as you might get on as much as you might share with each other things about your lives usually if the professional relationship stops, the friendship will not will not continue afterwards.

So there is a degree of professional boundary- ... that has to be maintained. And you need to create a space where your [00:17:00] client can relax and be themselves and be free with you. What do you feel are the biggest privileges doing what you do?

What's great about hairdressing is you have a very good, feedback loop. The feedback loop is basically one an hour. . If you're taking an appointment an hour, which you do in a salon, at the end of the hour, hopefully the person's gonna say, "Thank you very much.

I love my hair." Yeah. "You've made me feel so much better. I'll see you in six weeks." Or, occasionally it's a new client and you've given them something they didn't think was possible- ... and that's wonderful. Sometimes, you think, "Okay, went all right," but maybe next time we'll do better.

But the fact that you get this hourly feedback loop is very nice. I like that. When I was learning to sing, the feedback loop would come about when I would take my lesson twice a week, but all of that practice I was doing on my own in between, it's like, " Someone tell me. Tell m- someone tell me, is is is what I'm doing, going the right way?"

And then really w- wouldn't be until you, you got onto stage and you did a [00:18:00] production and the reviews came in that, you would finally- ... get to the end of that arc. Hairdressing arc is very short, and that's very nice, and it gives you a little bit of a hit, a bit of a dopamine hit- every hour, which is lovely. So there's that. The privilege for me is being let into people's worlds, people's inner worlds. People allowing themselves to be a little bit vulnerable with you as you work together to create a look for them. But, when I first started doing hair, I was six years old in the school playground doing French plaits on the girls in the playground. And I just love the feeling of it.

I love the feeling of touching someone's hair and manipulating it, plaiting it and arranging it. When I was a kid, I used to like knitting as well. I enjoyed the tactility of it of making something. So I enjoy that. And there's something about touching someone and knowing that I can help that makes me feel [00:19:00] good.

So that's a privilege. I enjoy the intimacy of hairdressing. I was talking about it earlier- ... the whole thing about touching someone. It is a privilege. Thanks for sharing that. When you're walking down the street, .. are you seeing people's hair, are you noticing things?

Or you're like, are you in switch-off mode? When I was in high school and I already had a Saturday job, and I was al- and I was fixated on hair, I remembered certain teachers saying to me, "Greg, stop looking at my hair." Because I wouldn't look at their eyes, I would look at the hair around them. And I, then I'd say, "Oh, come on, Mrs.

Church, will you let me do your hair?" Yeah. Or who- whoever the teacher was. And I did actually do a few of my school teachers' hair. And I was thinking about it all the time. And I think when you're learning any craft- Yeah ... you need to be obsessed about it, don't you? Yeah. You need to become obsessed with anything that- Yeah

is gonna be your focus, your creative focus in life. So yeah, costs me nothing to think about it and to plan and [00:20:00] consider options. But I'm in my 40s now, and so I can switch off quite easily. And thinking about people generally who you cut hair for, there must be times when you really disagree with someone.

How does that pan out? Are there some outlier stories you can think of? Where you, you had this vision for them, they couldn't see it, but they trusted you and it went amazingly, or- yeah. I mean- Or you talked someone out of doing something that you really were sure wasn't for them.

Yeah, you have to just guide people- Yeah ... out of what might not be suitable for them. . And it could be that their hair isn't up to it. It could be your hair is fine and straight- ... and you want something that's big and volu- voluminous, and it would suit somebody with- thicker, more textured hair.

So you have to be honest and say, "I don't think that's gonna work for you," or, "I know it's not gonna work for you." But then, the worst thing would be to come to a hairdresser and say, "I'd like this," and they say, "Nah, it's not gonna happen." What's...

[00:21:00] how's that gonna make you feel? Yeah, it's not constructive. It's gonna make you feel rejected, yeah. And and it's... Yeah, it's not constructive. I always try and say, I always try and just steer people into what is possible. Show them and dis- you know, because that's a positive statement.

This is what we can do with your hair. This is what is possible. And then also, if you know that the possibilities are limited, to state that and say, "Look, this is what you're dealing with. You've had some hair loss, and it means that your hair's not gonna do this anymore." For example.

I think it's important to state that clearly, and to say, " This is what you're dealing with. These things are not possible. But these things are possible." "And this is how I think we can help you make the most of your hair." Greg we live in a world where, we're we're judging ourselves plenty.

But also, people are judgemental. Some environments are really liberal and open. And you can go to say, a music festival and see far more adventurous, hairstyles- Yeah ... et cetera and [00:22:00] whatnot, and that's always fun. What do you want to see in terms of hairstyles for men and women that we don't see enough of? There are always certain trends at any given moment. And what I find interesting at the moment is that there are so many trends in the 20th century alone, and vast in advancements in how hair is actually done.

If you go back 100 years ago if you wanted to create a permanent curl in your hair, you'd have to boil the hair, and that was done. If you wanted to go blonde, you'd have to bleach it with the most incredible chemicals. Styling procedures were pretty- Primitive ... primitive is a good word.

Yes, absolutely. And also the preparations that you use have changed so much over the years. So basically, we're at the stage now where almost anything is possible. Surely we're at the best point in time- Yeah ... of if you wanna look, h- you know, go crazy with your hair and look great and experiment, pop stars now with [00:23:00] nearly loads of different looks.

You're thinking, "Wow." Yeah. Yeah. But then they have done for decades. Look at David Bowie- ... in the 70s and 80s, and he did so much. He was always changing. Look at the, great rock stars. So what do you wanna see? - What do I wanna see? I know what I like. What do you like? But it, so when it comes to my everyday work, and largely I am dealing with people who come to me to have a haircut that they want to last for six weeks.

So my or two months. So my task is to give people something that is going to hang and sit well, and is gonna be easy for them to do, and is gonna look good, and is also gonna be contemporary, and is gonna be appropriate. So that is the framework within I work- ... most of the time. I don't do editorial work- Okay

very much at all. I do very little. That is, what I've just described is my specialism. So when it comes to the great stuff that's out there, what's Lady Gaga doing with her hair? What what happened at the Met Ball- it was [00:24:00] also fantastical, wasn't it?

Yeah. Some incredible look. People were coming dressed like trees. It was like Into the Woods. You've got you've got this kind of fluidity now. You've got these two guys- ... who were in the TV drama recently heathed Rivalry. Yes, Heathed Rivalry. So Connor Story turned up , wearing something that Diane Keaton would've worn in the 1970s, and he looked tremendous.

He wore this kind of 1970s top and these high-waisted- Yeah ... incredibly flared trousers, and these huge, guns. Perfectly toned guns coming out and this short hair that had been placed and pin curled. And he was pouting and, It's great Expression, attitude- Yeah, absolutely

power. But it wasn't just masculine attitude, it was attitude of, "I can be anything I want." "And I can do what I want. And I wanna pout at you, I'll pout at you." So at the moment it's anything goes. Expression, absolutely. Yeah. There, there are no limits to people's expression.

The further they push things, the better, as far as I'm concerned. And they do. There are people out [00:25:00] there who will push it, and I love that. Amen. Amen. So let's... we wanna largely focus on women, but let's talk about men for a second. Okay. What do m- what can men learn from you?

Maybe it's stuff on maintenance or maybe it's some classic rules on getting their hair cut. The obvious one that you said is showing a photo of what you want your hair to look like. It's so obvious. But that is such a basic way of getting what you want done.

I would say for anyone, if you're looking for something new if you're looking to change things up, any inspiration that is any photographic inspiration is really helpful. I would say that's true for men and women. Absolutely. Now we're gonna talk about women. Okay. So- I like working with women

Yeah. Amen. Greg, women will be dying to get some tips off you. Yeah. And it would be sacrilege to not try and get some useful insights from you about hair. And where, which part of that do you wanna [00:26:00] start with? Should we talk about hair maintenance or...? Sure. What can I say?

Yeah. So the blow dry look. I mean- Yeah ... the, this whole thing of I wanna have my hair done in a way that looks like I haven't had it blow-dried- Yeah ... but it still looks epic. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what? When I started working with Trinny about 10 years ago

Trinny has naturally and I suppose her hair is the look that I'm most associated with. It's quite thick, her hair, isn't it? Her hair's thick. Yeah. It's naturally very curly, and it's also, she's really lucky in that when it's blow-dried well, it'll last for days. Not everyone is- Not everyone's hair does that Blessed.

It's blessed, really You know, they're not... Exactly. She's blessed with great hair. Yeah. And but it also has its in- idiosyncrasies, and there are certain things that you need to do and certain things to avoid. There are technical aspects that- ... that need to be, taken into consideration.

But I suppose the thing about her hair was when we started working together, she said, "Greg, I want to have those [00:27:00] waves. I want my hair to fall into waves, but I don't want it to look old-fashioned, and I don't want it to look like I've been to the hair salon. What are we gonna do about it?" So I started blow-drying her hair in a way where we would curl it round the brush, but in order to make it look a bit more relaxed, we'd leave the ends out.

So if you can imagine a length of hair being spirally wrapped around a brush, and of course, the brush is quite a large thing- ... has a large circumference. So if you twist the hair around the brush, but then you leave the edges out, you get this wave running through the hair, but the ends just go...

So it's a straight edge. So 10 years ago, at around about the time that she launched her brand, Trinny London that's what we were doing with her hair. So we would get this kind of quite sort of carved wave, but then the ends would be a little bit straighter, and that made her hair look a bit more relaxed.

It made it look not old-fashioned. So that was our starting point, and [00:28:00] people always admire her hair. Her followers say, "Trinny, your hair's amazing. How do you do it?" And, You're a hair crush every day. Absolutely. And, A she's really well-endowed with beautiful hair- Yeah

That blow-dries really well. But we'd found a look. Now, that's evolved, and over the last 10 years, you could say that this kind of, this wavy look that is quite in fashion now has become much more relaxed. So people have started to say, "I want it to look like you haven't been here. I want that done undone look.

I want it to look like my hair hasn't been touched by a professional." And actually, that's the thing that takes longer and is harder to do. But we took that kind of wave with a straighter edge, and we literally pulled it out and pulled it out and softened it. And so the contours are now just little glimpses of waves here and there.

So largely, the look has become straighter, just with hints of those waves that used to be much stronger and much [00:29:00] more pert 10 years ago. And actually, Good Housekeeping Magazine, there's a Lynn Hyland wrote about it recently. She called it the ghost wave we've softened the wave out to the point where she says it's now the ghost wave.

It's that hint of a wave. And but it must be complete. You're literally in, you are inventing the wheel here. There's no... there, there's things that we know, but are you- ... quite literally experimenting with these techniques and these- I would say, no I'm more reactive, I would say, to what's going on around me.

I love... I would... In terms, I love solving a problem. So if someone comes in and says, "My haircut's not working for me," I love finding a solution. But in terms of moving a style on, I'm very influenced by what I already see around me. So whatever's happening on the catwalks, on the runways.

Whatever is showing up in content that you'll see in, in magazines, that sort of thing I'm much more inspired by that, and then I can recreate that. I'm not [00:30:00] really a creative pioneer in that respect. Modest. There are so many information gaps and education, things that we, people, if they learn about it, they can really- help themselves. ... Are there some, can we run through some top tips from Greg they could download my PDF on my website where I have gone through different hair types and given pointers for...

Because hair that's fine and straight is a whole different ballgame to hair that is, Yeah ... curly and frizzy. Frizz prone. But first of all, in order to look after your hair you need to find a good stylist who will give you the right haircut. You want to take care of your hair in terms of shampooing and conditioning.

You want to make sure that you're using product that is, designed for your hair type and is going to make your hair clean and well-conditioned and lubricated. You will want to look at how to protect your hair from heat when you're styling it. You'll want to look at what preparations you need to [00:31:00] apply to your hair in order to- help your hair become what you want it to be.

So let's say your hair is fine and straight- ... and you want it to be full and bouncy, you will need either a spray or a mousse or a gel- ... in order to, build your hair up- ... and to, help you along. It's amazing transformations that you've had. The comments on your YouTube are, "Oh my god, I can't believe what you do for people.

I wish I, I can have this." Yeah. This is just so special. So can we name drop on products for people who wanna have that volume and maybe have quite thin hair? Sure. There's so much out there. Yeah. And and usually when I'm working on someone I will just see the hair and this will help you.

This will help you. For example, one of my heroes is a guy called Sam McKnight. He is a hairdresser who's done editorial session work and runway work- ... all his career. He has had so many Vogue front covers. In the '80s and '90s he was Diana's hairdresser, and he did great stuff with her.

There is an [00:32:00] example of a woman who had very rigid hair in the '80s. It was big and rigid. And she turns up for this Vogue shoot with Sam McKnight, and he said, "Let's make it look like you just got out of the sea." And he gave her a wet look, and he turned her hair, the whole concept of her hair, on its head.

And and she said, "Oh, that's great. If you were to do anything with my hair, what would you do?" And he said, "Cut it off." And so he started out, he did Diana. He did all the great supermodel work, Christy Turlington and Naomi Campbell, Claudia Schiffer, Cindy Crawford.

All that big- ... big, glamorous hair from the late '80s and '90s. He did all of that, and his career has continued since. He's one of the most experienced people in the field, and he has brought out a tremendous high performance range of hair cleansing, conditioning, and most importantly, styling products.

And I use his products a lot because they do what they say. So [00:33:00] when something says Super Lift, like his Super Lift product- ... it really makes the hair super lift. It'll make it stand on end if you use it properly. So I really enjoy using Sam McKnight's products. I love the story behind him. He's someone whose work I've followed for 30 years now.

I really enjoy using his products. When I trained... When I moved to London, I worked for Nicky Clarke. And Nicky Clarke, in the '80s and '90s, was one of the great hairdressers around. He became very famous for having famous clients, and he had a very famous salon, waiting list, and a very famous high-end price.

He was the first person to charge in excess of £100 for an appointment. That was back in the '90s. Wow. And he also brought out a range of hair products, and he had a product called Lift, Thicken and Shine, which was a styling lotion that you would put on at the beginning of the blow-dry. And it made your hair lift, and it made your hair feel thicker, and it made it shine.

It was like [00:34:00] Viagra for hair, and that's one of my all-time favorite products. It's no longer- Yeah ... in production. You can't get it anymore. So that's a... those are two products I really like. And They were both designed by hairstylists that I rated and rate.

Greg: So what have you got here? You've got the wig, and then you've got- I brought a wig because, do you wanna meet the wigs? Yeah. Why not? So I have these wigs, and I snaffled them from the salon, actually.

They were used for some photographic work. And with the work I do on Instagram Facebook, and also it's now on YouTube a lot of the time I am doing somebody [00:35:00] else's hair. And I'm showing them, "This is how I would do your hair."

But I'm working like that, and people have to translate that into how am I gonna do my hair?" Yeah. "How does that translate into this?" So I borrowed these wigs. I should return them to the salon at some point. It's basically a famous wig this wig. I've done a few makeovers with this.

And I've done a few blow-dries on it, and this wig has been so handy because what I do is I put it on like this. Yeah. And it then means that I can start to, demonstrate how...

This is how I blow-dry my hair. This is how I'd brush my hair. This is where I'd hold my hairdryer. This is where I'd hold my brush. This is how I would section off, and this is how I would do the back of my hair. . So the questions I get are usually based upon how do I do this myself? So if you've donned a wig- Yeah

you can show people this is how I would do that. This is how I'd work the back of my hair." Yeah. People say, "I never know how to work the back of my [00:36:00] hair." And the answer about doing the back of your hair is you're probably gonna be working blind. And so you're gonna have to just go, "Oh, I can feel this section here."

"And I can just lift that bit up, and this is what I'm gonna do. And I can't see. I can see in the mirror, but everything that feels like it's going to the left is actually going to the right," and so One thing I've been able to target with the Reels is showing people how they can actually do it themselves.

Rather than here's a hairstylist doing somebody else's hair. It's so easy for them." Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's been the unexpected aspect of doing work on social media, is I did the work to... I started making Reels to promote myself and what it's become is a sort of a more educational channel.

And it's now a means of showing people this is what you can do. This is what I did on her, and [00:37:00] you can have this experience as well. This is what I've achieved on this person's hair, and I can arm you with the same information and .. i can empower you to have great hair as well.

Great. Lots of people are very happy to give advice, and it's one thing hearing advice. When you see the benefits of that knowledge and,. the proof- ... it's just so different, isn't it? It's night and day, yeah. You're about to, you're like, "Oh, my God.

He knows what he's doing." And going on your YouTube, seeing what you do to people, the transformations you do and the- ... the tricks is extraordinary. Thank you. For anyone curious, do check out Greg's socials. You have a very respected reputation for a reason. Just to bring things back, was there a singular moment which pointed you into wanting to jump into hair? I was fascinated by what hair could do, just 'cause I learned to plait hair when I was a child. And so when I was in, in primary school I, I would plait hair. I'd see a tassel on a rug and I'd plait it. I'd [00:38:00] get a girl with long hair home for a play date- and I'd show her in front of the TV and say, "Just let me do your hair." And I'd get behind her- ... and start plaiting her hair. So I just loved the way it made me feel. I loved the contact it gave me. I used to feel a bit...

I could feel a bit lonely sometimes. I had a different, I had different interests to my brothers when I was growing up. They were much more sporty and they did other things. And what I was looking for when I was a even as a child, was contact. And so doing someone's hair made me feel like I was in contact with them.

And and then if I could do something for them, then, we talked about the the feedback loop. It just made me feel good. It just made me f- it made me feel useful. And I also liked seeing the results. I love how malleable hair is, and I love how you can take something and [00:39:00] make something diametrically different out of it just with a little bit of know-how.

And it's, yeah, if, for anyone you could do it, right? Yeah. Yeah. You can improve the way someone feels and sees themselves. But you can also take a thread, t- take someone's hair which c- might be fine and lacking in volume, and give it all the volume and the appearance of thickness that it otherwise wouldn't suggest.

That's great. You can transform people, make people feel totally different. You can cut it so it frames them differently. You can cut it so their face opens out like this. Or you can leave it and it can drag them down like that. You can make those differences through cutting and styling, and that's lovely.

I never tire of that. Yeah. Amazing.

The privilege of meeting all these people- ... in, in such an intimate way, so truly special how open people will be with you- ... about themselves. [00:40:00] You must learn a lot from people and see such strength. Can you talk to us about some of the things that you've adopted from people you've met?

You do. You learn a lot. Something I've always enjoyed about my work is, I come from Wales, and I moved to London because I wanted to be around exceptional hairdressing- ... and to learn from the best. Being in London means that you come across a lot of very talented people, and I've met a lot of people who are leaders in their field.

 And they're always interesting to talk to, and you learn so much from them. You learn what it is that makes them exceptional at what they do as well. And so it gives me a little perspective into their worlds and I might do someone's hair before she goes out to be photographed, or I might do someone's hair before she goes into a boardroom.

That interests [00:41:00] me. The range of people's experience interests me. It, but it must, we're human, right? Yeah. And I think part of being human is we do change, we evolve. Sometimes, for the good, sometimes challenges can t- you know, hit us in difficult ways.

But there'll be so many profound bits of, that you learn from, largely it's women- ... that are ama- truly amazing, that, really impact you. Maybe it's their perspective on ... all sorts of topics. Could be failure or how to treat people or navigating

different complex situations. You'll be picking up countless bits of information. Absolutely. Can you take us there, Greg? Because- Oh. ... because, 'cause, these, these women, there'll be so much they have to teach us-

is there an example you can think of? So I have a client who is a very well-respected and successful restaurateur, and I can say, I can tell that his mo- one, I don't know if it's, it'll ever be his motto, but but certainly that sense of you get more with [00:42:00] honey than you do vinegar. You always get more from treating people well rather than domineering them.

So I think in terms of learning how to treat others, it's very tempting, isn't it, in climbing your way to the top- Yeah ... to tread on others. So the reminders that, you know... Stuff like that. Tell you what does happen is that if I, if ever I have a problem, I can usually solve it during conversation with somebody- because I might meet someone who has experience in that world or that realm. Yeah. Or just that someone has life experience, yeah. And I can just run something past someone. "I've got this problem. Let me just, can I just run this past you?" And they'll say, "Yes." And maybe they've had experience of it, and they can say, "This is what you do," you're like, "Oh, my God- ... that was so simple and so dreary. How did I not see it that way?" Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, I think, I don't know. I had this idea when I was growing up that if you wanted to be a winner, you had to be ruthless.

Yeah. And it's not true. [00:43:00] Ruthless people, it always comes back to bite them. But the people who do things from a good place where they treat people with dignity, where they're prepared to pay things forward, they're prepared to give something away- For nothing is a really important thing.

And I suppose I see that in terms of the following I've built up through my social media is because I'm prepared to give away what works for me. Try this. See it how it works. I post it on online, and people can try it or not, and if it works for them, it works, and it's great. I learned that from somebody else, and I can pass that on to somebody else as well, and that's always very gratifying.

That thing of paying forward, generosity of spirit treating others as you would like to be treated. These are tenets of what it is to be a good person and to be a, a good citizen, and I see those tenets playing out all the [00:44:00] time. If I meet someone who is at the peak of their profession- and I admire them it's always great to get to know them and to find that actually behind the the rise to to whatever it is they're doing is rigor, discipline, integrity, goodness. I think it was Iris Murdoch who talked about love and goodness, and I remember at the end of the movie about her where Judi Dench plays her there was a moment where the f- the film goes back to...

And I don't know if this is true or not. I hope it is. I hope Iris Murdoch talked about this. She talked about human beings loving each other and loving other things, and being kind to one another, being kind to other beings, be them plants or trees or humans or even stones. And she said, "You need to believe in something in life."

She said, "Without the need for God..." I d- I think she was an atheist, but she said, "I believe in love and goodness."

If you [00:45:00] approach anything from that point of view, then it's a good way to move forward. Greg, thank you so much for- No, it's- I feel like I'm becoming very deep and, no It's moving. It's moving. Greg you've really given us a very open, caring insight into your life, what you give people, the dynamics- with these people and- Some of the kind of situations you get in with people and how open they can be and and the joy it brings you. Yeah. Thank you. You used the word caring and I think that sums it up. You have to care. And so yeah, thank you.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's been very interesting talking to you at such length because I don't know how ar- how well ar- I've articulated how I feel about my work because no one's really ever asked me questions in such depth before about what my motivations are behind my work.

And so that's been very interesting to explore with [00:46:00] you. I feel like I wanna go off and think about it and- Yeah ... come back and talk to you a bit more about it. It's funny 'cause we, there's more to unpack there, 'cause it's so giving what you do, right?

Y- and that, you talked about that and it's quite an interesting, you know, going back to that, those early days, feeling a bit lonely and- ... then finding this curiosity for hair and what that can do f- to people. And look at you now doing that tirelessly for people.

Does it surprise you sometimes getting messages from clients occasionally being like, "Oh, my God, I feel great today. Thank you." Yeah. Or- It feels great ... my... It feels great. I'm sometimes amazed at the impact it h- has had. I think I've given someone a good haircut and I've had a nice time with them, and they write and they say that it was, in inverted commas, "life altering." Sometimes i- some- you don't know the impact you have on people until- Yeah. Sometimes you gotta s- you see it y- Yeah ... with them, right? It's lovely. It's in the moment. It's really lovely. It's in the moment rather [00:47:00] than necessarily the message.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Greg. Thank you, Arthur.