Guy Hayward Interview
Guy video with correct sound
Arthur: [00:00:00] Today we have Dr. Guy Hayward.
It's such privilege to have you guy. You're a maverick. You are a really unique individual in, in how you help people and all the things you are involved with. And I want to give the listeners just a few fact points on you.
So you've co-founded in 2014, the British Pilgrimage Trust. You did a PhD at Cambridge on how singing forms community, as well as setting up the choral even song trust, which helps connect people to singing in spiritual places. There's so many things, and I can't wait for us to, attempt to, touch on your phenomenal knowledge about so many different subjects.
But what's so clear from, someone looking at you, looking at
The big guy is how,
You share your vulnerability with people, but how you have such a passion for really connecting people. Is it all about connecting [00:01:00] people what you do?
Guy: It's a good question.
We're all on a
journey in our
own lives, and we try to find out who we are
and where we're going
and
just become more comfortable with being ourselves
Being
comfortable in this,
on this earth,
And
Yeah, any
form of connection is helpful for that So you connect to nature.
That means you're you're not di you're not
disconnected, and you're not isolated
from something that is true or disconnected, connected to your body or connected to your feelings or connected to communities that you meet or connected to the friends that you walk with or the loved
ones you are.
with. Like
connection's really important 'cause it just means you become less like a kind of isolated atom that's just whizzing around on its own. Like an island unto itself. And I think, yeah, the connection is really important these days. And also
it depends what you're connected
to. We're all connected to our phones, but it's a different kind of connection 'cause it takes you out
into
this
virtual
world.
And I think
[00:02:00] I'm into analog stuff. I actually love digital stuff and I'm really into ai and I'm really into phones probably too much. But like I, I love, my actual work is about analog stuff. Like Pilgrimage and connecting people with singing in either
folk
traditions or coral even song, which is this for 500 year old tradition in, in, in churches, which is really
unpopular.
One of the things that I'm
that into is making
unusual, unpopular, quirky things that have been done for
a long time,
like hundreds
of years. So they've definitely
got tried and tested proof that they were a good, they were a good thing at one
point in time, and trying to bring them back as something
relevant for
now
and relevant for
The issues that people are complaining about.
Arthur: I really advise everyone go on the British pilgrimage Trust websites. It's maps Out incredible routes where you can walk around and do pilgrimages in the uk, but also maps out spiritual sites. As time moves on, we learn [00:03:00] different things about ourselves and what we want.
Where do you feel you are at on your journey with doing what you're doing?
Guy: It's interesting when people
hear the
phrase pilgrimage or word pilgrimage,
They think that's
must be a
religious thing. And so when
I started in 2014, we tried to make it a
bring your
own beliefs,
pilgrimage so you can,
it doesn't matter where you come from in terms of background or belief or you just bring to it what you are and discover through the journey what it wants to show you.
You don't have to bel, you don't have to end up in any particular place as a set of beliefs. It's
more about the practice
of walking one foot in front of the other.
And interestingly, I think one of the things that started to surprise me is I'm reconnecting a
little bit with this, the old
Traditional
Christian
heritage of
This land,
which is like really not
the right thing to
do if you're in the spiritual world. Like you can basically be anything but Christian these days. Like as long as you can be pagan, druid, [00:04:00] Taoist,
Buddhist,
Humanist,
Anything you like of nature lover, as
long as it's not Christian,
there's just something strangely everyone.
But I think
that's starting to shift. Like
I think if
10 years ago or
15 years ago, he had Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, like these kind of the new atheist movement, they were like really popular. They were like the high priests
of society. Everyone believed in atheism
and stuff and
then it became more spiritual, like spiritual but not religious, opening up and
then it,
and then I guess. Now there's this shift of like, how do we anchor ourselves back in tradition, in place, in
community?
And
there are so many issues with the church, it's like, why would I even go anywhere near
that? because it's too.
too complicated. It just, it's too hard a problem, to get people interested again.
So I guess I'm just still working out all this [00:05:00] kind of stuff, if you end up with a fully
spiritual but not religious,
bring your own beliefs, it means you it's very individualist.
It's very kind of you going on your own journey to whatever you like, which appeals to a lot of people 'cause they don't want to be told what to believe. But you miss out I think on the kind of messy community actually, like the idea of this scares me or anything is going to a community where I don't know who the people are gonna be.
I dunno whether I'm gonna get on with them very
well.
And I might have to join the rotor or something. That's the kind of thing that most people think, I really don't wanna get involved with that. That sounds not very much fun. So it's about
how
do you solve all the things that everyone's saying are issues, but
also.
not become even
more fragmented
than we already are and try to bring people together.
So singing, is a classic way of bringing people together. Always has been. And you can sing
any
songs. It's, you
can sing songs about nature. You can sing songs about love, you can sing songs about caring for each other [00:06:00] devotional songs to maybe Hindu Kean or Buddhist or Christian Tezo, Chancy or Amazonian chants.
Can you like the jungle feel? Singing ev is very evocative just by me saying this. So you can already feel like how a song can take you into,
um, singing famous
pop songs or famous rock songs everyone loves that brings people together. It's really powerful. And so I think I, if I look back at what my journey, I think it's all been about bringing people together and I wonder why, I've never really thought of myself as that kind of a person.
Someone who likes to bring people together.
It's not how I identify,
but if you actually look at what I've
done
like my PhD was about that.
Arthur: when
Guy: master's thesis was about walking and talking and feeling connection with people.
Pilgrimage
is obviously bringing people together, boundary and cad, which is my musical comedy.
Singing, that's making people laugh together about difficult subjects. Cool. Even songs, bringing people together. But
I guess lots of people bring people together. It's just what are they bringing people [00:07:00] together for?, What's the direction behind
it?
Like
a football crowd is, what's it?
What's it? It's bringing lots of people together. It's very effectively, and if anything, that's the one thing that does bring everyone together really. In a big way every week. And it is a
kind of religion
and it makes people focused, , on flow and being in the moment and really like present, people just looking at the ball for an
hour.
But.
yeah, there is something, it's not like making you think, oh, I need to love more or I need to be kinder to my mother or my lover or, yeah. It's not, football doesn't
really do that. It's just something
else. And I think there are just all these different spiritual practices and what I'm learning
in myself is more and more it's about practices.
What do you do with your life rather than what do you believe? Because
Or is it about
Arthur: what
Guy: learned
about myself
specifically? Myself? I've learned actually that I was not that connected to nature, and I still am not. I [00:08:00] still, that's the weird thing is sometimes you choose a job or a, a vocation, a path like why That's the most
interesting question. Why have you chosen what you've done?
What is it doing for you? For me it's, it is literally teaching me how to be connected with my body, with nature, with my heart. It kind forces me to engage with
those things.
Would I have done
that as
much if I hadn't taken this path? Probably
not.
Arthur: And you framed
Depression really beautifully in, in one sentence and how people can not be depressed. Could you just repeat that for us
Guy: think depression is something
to do with feeling disconnected from. The what is out of you or outside you? What is beyond you? Something that's greater than
you?
It's an isolation. It's illness of isolation really. One of the
biggest
symptoms is
withdrawing from social life and withdrawing from your friends and withdrawing from sharing who you are.
And
so I think [00:09:00] the cure to depression, is
Arthur: we heard that word,
Guy: the
I think the
cure to depression is connecting with what is beyond yourself.
Arthur: And you connected that to storytelling and there being a link there with pilgrimages and
Guy: yeah, I think, storytelling makes you feel part of something
'cause it
makes you feel
part
of a bigger story and. Especially if the story is really a good one. Like I'm generally of opinion that the best story should win rather than necessarily the one that is factually the most correct. Because really good stories, they're true, but not necessarily in a true, in a normal way that people describe True.
They have an even higher truth.
It's bit like people say Lord of the Rings is it's not true and it's just fantasy. And they say as if it's like a bad thing
that,
and it's just like fantasy. Yeah. And people put it down and you think, why? Why would you put it down? Because if it's connecting to some kind of truth that is within us and something true [00:10:00]about our psyche or the way we connect with nature around us or the way we connect with morality, whatever
then it's true.
And so I feel that stories that have been passed down generation to generation that are connected to the land and are. They for depression they really anchor people, make people feel like they belong somewhere. I think depression is also a disease of you, like you don't belong. I
Arthur: so
interesting.
There are so many parts to your involvement with encouraging people to come together, whether it be for singing or for a pilgrimage can you put us on that journey of a pilgrimage? Let's hit a definition and maybe just put us
into that
world of what the process looks like
just get a kind of sense of being by that river and what it gives people and how it creates that connection.
Guy: I think firstly there are
different lengths of
durations
of pilgrimage. So if you're going for a day or for half an hour, it's different to doing a three [00:11:00]week pilgrimage. Let's say we're doing a big one, like one week, two week, yeah.
Three weeks, about four weeks. Five,
Arthur: 50.
Guy: Yeah.
Yeah. It's that moment when you think ah, sounds quite good. I quite, I'd quite like to do a pilgrimage and people have that sort of vague,
It's
Bubbling up inside them and why they, why is it bubbling outside them? And it's usually, they might not even know and they might, it might be unconscious that their sort of their subconscious knows they need to do it, but they, their conscious doesn't understand why.
So for example, they're going through a divorce or retiring or they've just lost a job or they're just starting out and they dunno where they're going in life or. They've got burnout
or
they've lost some, they've lost some, like bere, they're in grief. And they may not even realize how in grief they are until they're on the journey, but they feel this
urge,
They need to walk it
out.
So that's the beginning is usually
this.[00:12:00]
Most people don't do a really big and put that effort and take that time out unless they are going through something. It's
just a thing.
I think
even if they don't think they're going through something, usually once they start walking, the emotions bubble to the surface and stuff starts to pop into your mind that has been lying dormant for years.
just a weird
thing that the walking mind gives you. The walking heart gives you. Yeah. So that's the first bit. Then you've gotta say, okay where am I going? 'cause that's the obvious question. I've maybe you've worked out when or how much time you're gonna give it. And they say, where and when People say to me, where am I?
Where should I go? I just say, what landscape do you like? What kind of landscape do you like? Rivers? Do you like mountains? Do you like flat? Do you like deep forests
or,
Really remote islands what pulls you? And then they usually have an answer. Most people know what land they want to go
to.
And then you said, and I said have you tried that part of Britain or, 'cause we focus on Britain and the British mage Trust, but you could go anywhere in the world.
[00:13:00] And
then.
once they
decide where they're gonna go, they can come to our website, find the route, all that kind stuff. But then the next question is, where am I gonna sleep?
And that's a big question. There's a pilgrim. 'cause the where you decide to sleep slightly depend. So it determines how your journey's gonna be. You can camp, like you can sleep in churches, church halls, village halls, 10 pounds a night. For the community run spaces, then you
can do
Airbnb,
you can do hotels, you can do whatever you like.
Generally in rural areas it's not, it's harder to do all this. If you're walking you, it's because you're walking from place to place.
You can't guarantee that where you are ending up for the night will have an Airbnb. So you might need to be a bit more flexible.
In places like Spain, they've just got these hostels everywhere, along the route.
So you can go on, always guarantee you're gonna have
somewhere. But
in Britain, we're not
all over Britain. We haven't got that
tradition yet, but maybe along some of our
roots, you can sleep in places and you will, there will be a guaranteed place for a pilgrim. So that's the next
[00:14:00] thing
when you're actually on it.
You start by setting an intention, let's set an intention now. What do you want over the next year, this p this podcast to do for you?
Arthur: Connect as many people as possible to inspiration.
Guy: There you go. That's the intention. And that now means it's more likely to It's like a casting, a spell.
Arthur: Yeah.
Guy: Yeah. My intention with this interview is to firstly try and articulate to myself why some of the questions you're asking me and just didn't go on that journey of not knowing what I'm gonna say next.
And also for,
I
guess for the listener
I want you to feel that there are more options available to you for exploring life. At the end of
it,
have another more option. Doesn't mean you have to take them, doesn't matter if you have to do them, but just to know they're
there.
Arthur: It's
really beautiful. Thank you. So these pilgrimages, so very much vary in [00:15:00] length.
What are some of the kind of typical things that, I've never Donna pilgrimage, so maybe in some ways I'm the worst person to be asking these questions in some ways the best because I
don't no.
There's
Guy: best. There is much, beginner's mind.
Arthur: There's so much. Yeah. That the mind of a child that
yeah.
May, so many benefits of having, you asked you, you don't have these assumptions, but when you've led so many people and we talked, in fact just before the, we started the interview
about
someone, we both know who guy, we were also talking about how the world works in mysterious ways.
Sometimes things only happen at a certain point. You can't force things. Book books end up being written at a certain time. You don't, as an artist or whoever you are, whatever you are doing, things just do sometimes have their time and place. And you encourage this wonderful lady to do this pilgrimage, knowing nothing about what was going through their life and ended up getting thanked through one of their relations [00:16:00] for helping being part of that journey for her.
Now, people listening to this,
in some ways it's, we can understand this concept of going on this journey. And it's not a walk, but it, there's obviously
lots of
relevance to walking. How would you describe what it gives people?
Guy: It's interesting we talked about beginner's mind and being like the mind of a child. I think there is that. That's the core, that's the core mindset, is you have to be open to learning something.
The thing about children is they've got so much to learn and their minds are just really open to learning. And so they can just go in any direction. I think it's not that we lose it as we get older, it's just, it becomes strangely harder to put yourself in that
zone. Whereas, and
I think
being a pilgrim is going without expectations.
So tourists, maybe they buy a package holiday and they know where they're gonna go and there's an itinerary and they've, they got this nice hotel there and they got this, and they,
Arthur: and the bus better be there
Guy: Yeah. And they expect
certain things to [00:17:00] happen. , And
Pilgrimage
has
this sort of fluidity and flexibility and openness, the spontaneity of what might happen. Like you might just meet a random person. He says, why don't you come back tonight? And you're like, that doesn't fit my plan. But you start to not have a plan. You just sort
let go
of plans and then
the journey starts to show you what it wants to show you, not what you want it to show you. And so that, that is a good mindset to be in for life because most plans fail. Not because they're bad plans and not because you are incompetent. They fail because you're not supposed to do that thing.
And you just, so it's about letting go into something a bit more sort of the intelligence of everything.
The universe, not just your own single individual, isolated intelligence. So that's the first thing that's like the mentality.
How you meet different places is a key thing I think. 'cause walking. We people know how to do walking. Generally, and also over the last 40, 50 [00:18:00] years, walking in the countryside has grown as an activity.
But what is recent is the pilgrimage side of it, which is the kind of add-on, add VA value add to walking. And that's how you engage with certain places that maybe had devotional practice in for hundreds of years or thousands of years. Like holy wells, like in Glastonbury, for example. Or the chalice white, the Red Spring and the White Spring.
All
holy wells all over Britain or ancient trees, river sources, caves, islands, waterfalls, stone
circles,
and
all of these different places, including obviously churches, cathedrals, mosques, temples, synagogues, gwar all these places
can be engaged with in different ways. And how you behave in each place
will
Determine how you experience it.
So if you sit in silence by. A babbling brook, with come the spring
and
you light a candle and like we've lifted candle. You're in silence or you
[00:19:00] try and feel the place, you maybe drink some of the water
there. Or you drink the inspiration of the
place or with a tree.
You like, you hug a tree and, or you touch it or whatever you wanna do. But and a
lot of people
laugh at people who hug trees.
And I, my response
when people
laugh
and
find it embarrassing, I just say why wouldn't you
hug a tree? Why? It's only just 'cause people think it's a crazy thing to do and there's, people laugh at it, but the, so just have a go.
They're not
Arthur: Not
Guy: saying you have, that you have to feel a certain way or you have to believe a certain thing in order for you to do it. But just try it
first. Islands, islands make you feel different. Waterfalls, you stand underneath it, let it crash over your head and see what that does to your being.
And then when you're in a church, maybe kneel at the altar or lie down on the ground, looking up at the ceiling, or put your forehead to the east wall and feel the vibe of the church and or sit in silence or lie to candle for someone or look when you're at a river and I throw a pebble into the confluence of two rivers.
So they, and [00:20:00] set intention as you throw the, you can invent
rituals for yourself. You can become your own playful ritual artist
and you to turn your journey into a work of art, I think is another
thing. So, yeah.
that's what I'd say is different. And it, none of what I've said requires you to have particular beliefs.
It just requires you to do something and see how you feel afterwards.
Arthur: There's yeah, a lot there. We, you've talked a bit about connecting with yourself, but also what's around you and actually that, how that's related to connecting to yourself and then other people and being open-minded.
Have there been some standout moments for you where you've connected with a specific place that's just hit you in a surprising way?
Guy: Yeah. The most surprising way
ever
is was
actually
the realization that I'd been to places, but my body had remembered them. And I had, I, like it had worked out what this place meant for me without me realizing with my [00:21:00] mind.
So
it sounds
a bit unusual, but basically I went to Avery, which is this huge stone circle, the biggest in the world. It's near Marlborough and Wilshire, and it's quite close to Glastonbury and Stonehenge on the same kind of line and. I love that place. And it's a place at the ancestors.
A lot of people are buried there in in this spread out miles around this landscape. And then I also went to this place called Wells Cathedral Chapter House, which is an extra outbuilding on the side of the cathedral at Wells Cathedral, which is the most amazing medieval cathedral that we have in England.
Really? I think mine's my favorite,
but and it has deep sacred geometry connecting to the cosmos and the chapter houses this, it's supposed to represent the moon. And then I went there and I love singing in it. And I thought, I love these places, so I dance that the thing. But then this really strange thing happened where I meditated and I had this feeling where [00:22:00] this energy was going down my spine into into my root, into this sort of that region, the root chakra.
And then as soon as I went there and I could feel my energy there, suddenly this image of Avery came to my mind. And so I started to think, oh my goodness. Yeah, Avery is a root shack for place. It's helping you ground and root and lay down your roots and connect with your ancestors and your family and where you come
from.
And then suddenly the energy started traveling up my spine to go into my Crown. And then when I went to the crown, suddenly I could see Cathedral chat house. And I hadn't thought about these places in those terms ever before,
and
I wasn't wanting any particular place to happen to, to relate to each.
It just happened. And I thought going to these places doing something to me. Like it's not just oh, I like the look of that place. I wanna go and see
it. It's, yeah. There may be
a bit of
that when you look through the, like a book or.
Like a, this book here, [00:23:00] Britain's pilgrim
places. Have a little
Arthur: Heavy, looks good.
Filled with lots of fantastic insights. Which we're gonna come back to.
Guy: But let's say you look in the book, you find somewhere you wanna go, and then you go, and then yeah, you can be interested by some of the things that it says you're gonna be interested in, but then when you're actually there, it's a whole body experience.
sounds you have, how you feel, the emotions when you're
there,
what, how you, how it, how the, what it looks like really affects you. There's so many it's,
why everyone goes to
live concerts. It's like you have to be
there
Then does something to you, and it does many things to you, which you may never understand. And I think this is what sacred places have always been. I think they're like. They're tools for our soul. They're like, no, maybe another way of putting charging points in the landscape for our soul. So you go and it's okay,
maybe I shouldn't bring Elon Musk into, but Tesla like a Tesla,
like
Arthur: [00:24:00] charging an
Guy: electric car charging point, let's say like that.
You, you plug in and you somehow it does something to you, and then you're able to go onto your path more
Arthur: And in rational speak, it doesn't make sense, right? And I guess there's an interesting disjoint between languages and culture in some senses where some languages cover some specific words that, other languages just don't have a word for.
Yeah. Is there a place that you go to that makes you feel really calm, that you don't necessarily deliberately think of that place, but when you. Won. Feel calm. When you do
feel calm,
you just start thinking about that place.
Guy: I live in London, so I live
in
Hor and near Hor is this church called St.
Barolo the Great in Smithfield. And
it's the only
what? Yeah, it's the only church within the city of London
That didn't get destroyed by the Great fire in London. Everything else did, pretty much. And so it has this really deep ancient feel. And if you go into the Lady Chapel at the end, there's this kind of serious [00:25:00] peace that you find there.
There's, it's very calm. You just have to sit there and be peaceful. I think London, especially in shortage, there's so many sounds, metallic and construction works and trains going by and it's quite intense for the body. And you just go in these really stone cloud wall, like really thick stone walls and really ancient feel and it just goes.
And it's cool. I don't do it that much to be honest, but I'd say in a, in an urban environment, that's where I go. All Hampstead Heath obviously lovely. I'd say temperate rainforests. We like, there's,
on the west
of Britain all, there's this western corridor. There are these trees with moss on them and like liver works.
this really like magical fairy like landscape from that you might imagine in your chart when you read children's literature about the ultimate forest or with like river running through it
and just really
moist air. And
that really makes me [00:26:00] calm
Arthur: Do we, are we getting better at understanding why different materials and environments actually change our state?
Guy: Yes. In a scientific way, they're starting to realize
that.
Being in a woodland makes certain immune cells increase. For example, that's one thing that happens. Some people measure cortisol before and after your stress response. I don't know how many
neuroscience,
it's quite hard to do neuroscience outdoors.
But this is a one way of understanding why a place makes you feel better. And it's useful in a sense, and some people need to be spoken to in that way, for them to believe that it's
good for me.
But poetry, film, documentaries,
I
think there are other ways to understanding that. You just have to see a place and you think, I want to do that.
And you don't necessarily know why.
It's a big thing. I've we struggle with in the charity, because in a charity you have to fundraise, [00:27:00] you have to show impact, which means you have to measure. Before and after, you have to show in on these metrics. Someone is, life is improving, but so much of what happens on pilgrimage is mysterious and you don't, it's it's getting into nooks and crannies of your soul that you don't really And, so showing the impact of that, it's actually quite
difficult.
Arthur: Yeah. For example, , sometimes conversations can be life changing, you know that you never see that person again, but you have a conversation that triggers a thought, which
leads a
whole different series of events which
ultimately change your life.
Are there two or three people you've met which have changed your world in surprising ways?
Guy: Yeah. Probably the two most important people that have changed my world were Rupert, shell, Drake, and Jill per I met them when I was about 23, when I was actually in a, probably in a state of depression, I'd say roughly around that time.
And, I was just starting my PhD and I was feeling like, what, where am I going in life? And I was feeling quite disconnected, although I [00:28:00] didn't realize that at the time, and I was focusing on sorting out my diet. I thought maybe if I eat better foods, suddenly my depression would go. Or if I did more exercise it would go.
And none of these things in the, in themselves, they probably helped, but they didn't get rid of it. But I think it was
eventually
connecting to Rupert's work on science and how he can, opening it up to the extended consciousness, the idea that you can go beyond current materialist paradigm of
the mind
just being inside the brain and just being inside the skull.
And that a bit like
with your mobile phone,
how
we know
that a phone can beam. Feet raise around
Cosmos and then some, someone can then pick it up and then speak. It's unbelievable if you think about it. Why can't I, our brains be like that too. There's nothing, no law says that it can't be the case.
And so maybe
it just opened
me up to this idea that we are maybe all
connected
by
consciousness,
[00:29:00] That goes beyond
just the material body. It's connected to the body. It's like your mind is a bit like a radio receiver,
like a,
it doesn't have all of the information of all of the programs coming through,
But it it's able to tune into something that's already out there.
I think that being able to tune into something that's already
out there
was what helped me get out of my
And Jill Percy's
wife, who introduced me to different forms of chanting and family constellation therapy
and,
two of them together were very in, they.
helped with a lot of
time and ever since.
And then I started the British people shots with Rupert
and
I've been, they've been a big part of my life ever since.
that's just grown and grown. I'm still working with them now.
Arthur: The world works in funny ways.
Guy: Yeah. I
didn't, how I met them is vis is strange. So it's like how, why I suddenly met them at that point in my
life.
Arthur: People have such different lives. Listeners are in such different phases of their lives. Some are finishing
careers, some are [00:30:00]
working out what they want to do. What are some of the things that you really strongly believe that people should be doing more of to be connected to themselves or other people, or even their environment?
And we, I know that's we've covered a few things. If you're by river, putting your hand in the river,
it's being connected, it's being conscious and deliberate.
And I think going back to what we were talking about earlier is around how people can be have that connection, but, and that purpose.
How do you feel like people can dial up, they, they might already have a great purpose in life, but how can we, gear up
Guy: it's a
perfect segue from previously where we were talking about Rupert Shel Drake. And once he'd written his book, the, besides Delusion, I asked him what's your next book gonna be on?
And he
said I think spiritual practices, but looking at the scientific benefits of spiritual practices 'cause for the last 50 years we've been trying to bring spirituality into science, but what about bring science into spirituality? What [00:31:00] works, what are the practices that actually works?
And so we
looked
all over the world
and he came up with
various practices that are done all over the world to make people feel better, live longer, happier, healthier lives. So gratitude is the first one. There's something very healthy just about being grateful. Enormous amount of science
that
shows just being grateful more often
connects you in with that which is greater than you, but
also
just makes you look at life more positively.
It opens you up, I bet if you were to start thinking about how grateful you are that you are a podcaster, that that this is starting to be successful
and.
That people are listening and you had this dream and it's actually working out, and you feel that gratitude for the fact that you're living this life and you're grateful for all the people that have been helped, and you're grateful how it's helped you.
As soon as you start talking like this, you can probably already feel it. Mm-hmm. You feel better.
Arthur: better.
Guy: And, that's
just easy. That's an easy thing to do. It's not difficult. And most people can find something to be [00:32:00] grateful
for.
So that's one.
Arthur: I'm cut in. A friend he does aa and part of their practice and his practice is, he has a group on WhatsApp.
And every day he'll write three things he's grateful for. And , it's not things like, oh, I'm grateful to, h have somewhere safe to live it. It's often very different things. And I think
a
challenge for many people is how do you creatively think around what to be grateful for?
There are many dimensions that don't really get appreciated. And how do we get creative around bringing awareness to what the nuanced things that we should be grateful for are, and the way that our brains work is we get used to things that we have, right?
Someone's talking about hot water and how we are completely un in tune as to how great it is that we have that. But there's no basic stuff. They're basic staff. But
even like moments where people, I felt like we were talking about British culture, we are awful in Britain about showing awareness to what we get from people around us and vocalizing great things we see in people.
And this is such a great route to, sharing that gratitude [00:33:00] with people.
Guy: No, it's not very British actually to be
grateful. It's
funny you hear it, you think actually
it seems
a bit, bit
American.
It sounds
very, it's interesting, isn't it? But
Arthur: two on the notes.
Guy: Yeah.
Yeah. But why? It's much better to be grateful.
Um, So
that meditation and a meditation paired with prayer, I think prayer gets a lot of bad rep because obviously the question comes, what are you praying to? And then you start thinking is it a god? And then you start going, oh God.
And I'm down the God path. And then people get think I don't believe in that. And then you get, they get stuck basically.
And yeah, I went to this talk by Liz Gilbert last night. She had this amazing phrase, which is when someone says to her,
I don't believe in God that , she says I'm almost certain I do not believe in the God that you don't believe in
either.
That's how she deals with
it.
So meditation is clearing your mind trying to create space. Connecting with the kind of the ground of all being.
Arthur: Which meditation do you practice?
Guy: Actually, probably walking is
probably my, that's my way of
just getting into a
meditative
state.
[00:34:00] It's just your thoughts start to change and start to, to
be able
to
pace. I'm not a big meditator so I know that what I'm saying is good for people. 'cause it's one of the most studied things in science. Like it's has a good thing for people. But I'm, I just, I'm, I just know it's a good thing to do even though I didn't do it myself.
It's weird to say that on a, in
public, but
there's that, and then there's prayer, which is asking for things like asking for blessings on your family or yourself or on your work or even on your enemies. You can be quite creative with what you pray for.
Then
there's
connective in nature.
The spending sit, sitting in nature, just sitting down, listening to the birds and just sitting still and being there connecting
with
animals,
Like watching birds
pets working
how
in the
moment they are singing and chanting,
pilgrimage, obviously observing holy days and festivals, like observing the wheel of the year.
I've actually [00:35:00] brought this object, some owner here it is. Which is incense of iul, s spelled I-M-B-O-L-C. And
this is the
smell of
February the first
Wow
Of the year. No, all these seasonal festivals throughout the
year,
It's good, isn't
it?
Arthur: Smells do. They smells. Must hate you
Guy: basically. Yeah.
Arthur: When you smell something,
Guy: I
Arthur: that reminds me of
Guy: I'm in the shop, I'm in Glastonbury, in star child, like looking at all the different seasonal smells.
And so I think connecting with seasonal festivals like mayday harvest summer
sauces, bring Equinox, these kinds of things.
It's good, that watching the one thing that connects all of us is the sun and the moon. And so that, those sorts of things are good. Fasting is another one. Sports or spiritual practice.
'cause you
are in,
you're in the flow, you're in the present moment. You can't
not be
And
the most extreme sports are the ones for me. People
who can't
meditate,
who look really hardcore
finance people or work in really [00:36:00] high pressure environments, they often end up doing extreme sports because if you're halfway up a rock cliff, and you're just holding on and you are, every single hand hold helps you will be present.
So you will be
able to be in a meditative
state because you're forcing
it. Yeah. All different kinds. I'd say just find your way,
find your spiritual
practice and just see which one works for you.
Arthur: Pilgrimages they require their planning and they're fantastic in so many ways. We're gonna share some links with people so they can discover more around
The amazing movement that,
That you push. People coming together in a sort of less planned way.
Let's say you live in an urban environment, are there ways in which you think people should be, or us as a society be living in a different way? Doesn't need to be complicated, but do you, we think about isolation and, if you live in a city, people might have sports clubs or like that, their work colleagues,
et cetera, et
cetera, Is there something that's obvious around what we should be doing differently around,
around how we connect with people
Guy: and
it's a new [00:37:00] trend
That's really
getting going the last few years, which is walking to work. Even if the walk, if you, even if your commute ends up being an hour and a
half because you're walking, let's say from, I dunno, quite far out central London,
let's say
walking to work means you're going to see different. Weathers see different people,
you're going to be able to stop and say hello to someone or if someone needs help, you're able to help them. And you'll be moving your body in this sort of natural way
and
being outside and getting daylight and sunlight, like all the things that are good.
And instead of just jumping on the tube. And it may,
people might
think this is take, this takes too long. But you just start a bit
earlier.
And
a lot of people say it's just really improved their life. 'cause they get in touch with the people along the route of they look at the buildings, they look at, they get, there's more stimulating in a good way, rather than stimulating in a bad way.
Because in the tube it's stimulating, but
It's
from the sound, the loud sounds, all [00:38:00] the people it's different kind of stimulation.
I think that's the simplest and maybe even ending up at a sacred place before you go into your place of work and just spend a couple of minutes.
chilling
and tuning in with the sacred place and then going on to your work.
And
Yeah, let's
say politicians, if they
all went to Westminster
Abbey
before they went to work and
just with a candle or looking
at that amazing place, which you can do, you can just go in and pray or be silent or whatever you
wanna do.
So I think it's sim I use your body to go to work.
I think it's everyone does that. Everyone goes to work. So pretty much, not everyone nowadays, but pretty much
Arthur: That's a really good one. I'm gonna want to a few more. Sometimes if we're lucky enough to have, a week's spare where we go off some or really special and it's a great piece we take from that and
reflection, et cetera.
Yeah. But I think what's really interesting is around like your people's daily routine and how that can be, it's like small tweaks can have such
Guy: big
Arthur: impact. Yeah. Can you think [00:39:00] of any others?
Guy: Yeah, choose to be loving to your partner a
bit more
consciously.
So
go and make them a cup of tea or something and or know, do some kinda act, act of service or tell them they're wonderful or
that, that
is probably a good way, like o
re opening the channels of love, I think in your being as much as
possible.
try not to get pulled into
That
kind of narrowing thing where you start to get angry at other people.
that's really important
part of making your life better I
think, practice opening up.
the
heart. Which sounds really
hippie and it is in a way, but it's also pretty practical and a lot of people do it anyway, they just call it something
else.
So
I'd say that's really important. Maybe
if
you want to know, maybe blessing your food before you
eat.
Just saying thank you again. It's a gratitude [00:40:00] thing, but also just connecting with your food. Really being present that you're about to eat it
and it's about to become your body
Arthur: Being happy there, there's so many dimensions of that, it could be
Related to your physical state. You were
carrying stress. Yeah. And then we, we've had episodes where people talk about, there being more than more senses than we, we understand and how we connect to environment.
And it's so fascinating , the way you talk about us being a, in an, having an antennae. And there are so many examples which lead us to thinking that there are weird, curious ways we connect to our environment. We sometimes can have a sick sense that we need to move because there's something, that's not good news in that
direction.
Yeah. Or whatever
it is. Or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe it's a path to excitement, having a connection with someone in a room.
Yeah.
And the world is changing so significantly every day, right? AI is moving so quickly. Where are you thinking, oh my God, the future is gonna be a great place?
Funnily
Guy: I
do actually think
AI is part of it. Which most people would never say [00:41:00] and probably wouldn't
expect someone like me to say,
it it's like almost. Betrayal of what I do. But it's, the reason I'm saying it is because I think it does two things. It so many over probably three or 45 million. But
one
of the things is
when
we are in industrial revolution and the machines start to become more powerful, like trains and tractors and all this kind of stuff,
it meant that
you didn't need as many humans to be strong and their muscles. You didn't need so many muscles in the world.
You just needed machines to do the work. And that then meant that humans started to focus more on jobs that used the mind. So that, and then we shifted more to a kind, like a cognitive culture. Now even our cognition is taken over. It's better than us in many on that
level. So now
it's gonna be more about coming into the heart, caring for people, being in place, being in person, interaction, trust, building
those sorts of
relationships sort of things. And
also. [00:42:00] At school, you and I are probably taught in the same way, which is basically we get given a question and then we have to come up with the answer. And it's now flipped because of ai.
It's Now
can you ask the, who can ask the best question? Not about who gets the best
answer.
It's it's total flip of the
way that educational work, one way that minds will work. So actually we will be forced into a more creative state, which is, can I ask the best
question?
Arthur: That's so Fascinat.
Guy: And also the thing for pilgrimage, for example, as we spend more and more time in the metaverse, in the virtual reality in helped by ai, there's gonna be a craving for actual lived experience
in places like really
high quality
places.
I think
we won't just wanna sit in our room and be in virtual reality the whole time. I think it'll create this deep, even deeper desire to be in the So yeah, I think. use it for what it's good
for, and then go back
to the old ways that are really
great.
Arthur: So jumping out of the pilgrimage world.
There are so [00:43:00] many movements that are heart right now. Running clubs
Guy: hydros.
Arthur: Pottery, Potter's
Guy: I agree on this.
Arthur: potteries making a big movement. there
are
Guy: actually young people are going finding meetup clubs and going out as friends on walks. That is becoming more of a thing.
I really like the sauna
movement
Really
fast growing.
I,
the kinds of conversations you have in the sauna
are great. Ecstatic dance
people are doing more
of which basically just means dancing without talking
pretty much with really funky tribal music perhaps, but ultimately means just really getting into your body, really just connecting with each other in a sort of bodily way, nonverbal festival's growing like in the summer, like the festival culture is getting huge and it makes sense, festival's one of the best ways to feel connected out of taking you out of your comfort zone.
Arthur: We can't avoid words. Words play. A big part in your world. The teams, be it through [00:44:00] singing, you are incredibly articulate and the way you use language.
Are there some words or a series of words that you'd like to share today?
Guy: like
Arthur: verse or something?
Arthur: doesn't have to be Yes. Why? We can that we can get that
one?
Or it could be a song,
Guy: I could sing a song. Yeah.
Arthur: Yeah. That'd be lovely.
Guy: Okay.
Arthur: Sung
Guy: this
song
many times on shows like this, and I think
the
reason I do it
is because it's just so it's it encapsulates everything with the nature connection and the connection of the journey.
I'll just
sing. One verse
maybe.
Just the chorus and what's the life of a man any
more than a leaf?
A man has his season, so why should we grieve?
Although in
this life, we appear fine and gay like the leaves we must [00:45:00] with and soon fade
Arthur: away. Thank you so much for
Guy: So
it's obviously
that brings up death
and I
guess if you're gonna talk about how to live a better life than
death
and naturally there.
Always.
'cause it's
just part of
And if you're in nature, what you're witnessing death all the time if you're really looking.
so it's,
you get really tuned in. But a lot of people don't like talking about
that
For obvious reasons
Arthur: I dunno how you relate or associate with this, but I've heard people talk about, who, whatever they do say it's a job, but as soon as they start caring less a bit about certain things, that becomes much easier and they ironically end up doing better.
And I feel like there is something around having a sense of awareness and acceptance that we don't live forever means that we are a bit lighter on maybe ourselves and things in general and therefore. Let the [00:46:00] world push us into
Guy: Yeah. For me, the thing I, the thing about death that helps my life is that
I, okay, this is a belief and so this maybe is where beliefs can
help.
Yeah. But
this is a belief that
I
am going to in the same way that a river meets the sea and merges into this big ocean. I do feel that my life will, I'll merge with this even greater consciousness, and I'll still be, I'll be experiencing a whole new way of being after I die in
this
form.
And then by having that belief,
knowing where I might be going, but not knowing what it would be like that helps me connect with that. That's in this life too. That is, it is all, it's a reality all the time. We're all in it all the time, and so there's no separation. So I don't feel this kind of clear cut boom moment.
Some people think before and after death. Suddenly everything's, lights are off. There's nothing left. I don't, so for [00:47:00] me, what you believe happens after death really affects how you are about life. Having said that, I know people who believe there's nothing after death. Who have done lived amazing lives and they, it's almost heroic, they're like super bleak.
Go all goes to black. Like it just, that's I dunno how they, I dunno how they have
that belief and yet
they do, and they
live good lives.
So it's hard to know whether
my way is
the
right way. Yeah.
But it's, it helps me.
Arthur: Guy, it's pretty special how you communicate and how you spend your time to date. How do you, clearly you've got so much knowledge and experience with connecting to various different things. How do you feel like people should manage feeling lonely?
Guy: , There's two sides of being lonely. There's obviously not being around other people that's a form of loneliness,
but there's
also a loneliness that comes from being in a group of people but not in connection with yourself.
And
that you're not [00:48:00] really, haven't got a really good relationship with yourself
and so you feel alone somehow, even if you've got lots of people around you.
And I think, so there are two sides,
I think.
Yeah, find ways where people come together
Arthur: in
Guy: level
way where it's not about
how rich you are or how power high status, or if you're really good at a particular activity, that kind of hierarchy that can make you compare yourself and stuff, but do things which basically bring everyone together, like singing or, worship or whatever.
Or meditation or walking, whatever it is that it's where it is. Not really about who's the most important person there and that, that will help you, if not feel so lonely, but also. Spend more time with yourself,
ironically,
makes you probably feel less lonely. Really learn who you are, really go deep into the difficult parts of yourself.
And
Arthur: How do, how does one do that good? Because that,
Guy: thrown around
Arthur: or [00:49:00] you spend some time on your own, but, what does that
involve?
Guy: I mean there are different ways to do it. There's, obviously I will promote pilgrimage. There's walking it out. Like those emotions will come to the surface. Things will bubble up over time and you'll walk
it, solve itor. And Lando is a solved by walking as it's like old phrase. And there's that, and there's also, psychedelics, I would say are quite a good way of tuning in.
There's scientific evidence for that, and slowly but surely governments are getting closer to actually whatever the word is, approving use for therapeutic use, particularly for the most intense cases of trauma and PTSD and that kind of thing.
Then there's also therapeutic techniques like somatic therapy, connecting with your body internal family systems, which are all the different parts of yourself and talking to each other and helping them have better conversations with each other so they're not fighting each other, which is what we often find it happening inside.
And [00:50:00] also just have friends that make push you a bit, friends that tell you when you're maybe
not looking at something
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Arthur: People can do any pilgrimage in the world. Where would you throw them?
Guy: I think for the individual, they probably have to be somewhere to do their ancestral land. So wherever they
feel, whether or their
ancestors is actually do, but if they feel drawn to a place, I think just, yeah, help, I'd say to people most, as much as possible, feel where you want to go. Not think.
And because you don't necessarily, you don't know why you would go to a place and you go and then you discover why.
So there's that they're
really powerful spots. There's like really
famous
places like Glastonbury's, one of them pyramids in Egypt some of the temples, Aztec temples.
Quite a loop on our lady there. And
The Amazon, obviously, and Machu Picchu and like [00:51:00] classic. So you know, if you feel drawn to the big guns then go there.
But for the smaller guns or the smaller places maybe, I dunno why the guns have to be used, but anyway
for the smaller places just feel it, feel drawn.
Arthur: We are gonna move to the quickfire
questions.
Guy: Go for it.
Arthur: Three things that give you joy that we wouldn't know about.
Guy: porridge really like lots of different elements of porridge.
Recreating the sun of the tongue, hanging out and
lying in a river with water washing right over you.
Arthur: A mantra you want to embrace. Now,
Guy: Listen to the intimate connection with myself.
Arthur: A Favorite
book, film or artist that isn't obvious.
Guy: Tolkien is obvious to me, whether it's obvious to other people, I don't know. But I think deeper dive into this magical world he tried to [00:52:00] create and all the languages and all of the ways of looking at the world. 'cause I feel it's really important to what I'm doing.
The
Arthur: world's dealt tough cards something's not landed in your way. How do you jump out of that?
Guy: Look at
where the opportunity
is in it
In the war there's this song called Keep the Home Fires Burning.
a silver lining through the dark cloud shining, turn the dark loud inside out till the boys basically. I think it's that's all you can
Arthur: One thing that is in for you, and one thing that is out
Guy: in
is exercise in the morning and feeling like I can meet the day with more good ferocity.
And what's
out
is getting angry and getting anger by
Arthur: Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure to have you on.
Guy: Thank you.
