Couples Therapist With 1M Followers: The Keys to a Great Relationship

Julie Manano Interview

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Arthur: Welcome listeners here we have Julie Manano. Julie, it's such a pleasure to have you here, relationship expert. You are a powerful woman. You've got over a million followers. You've touched millions with , your advice around relationships being a qualified couples therapist, as well as being the author of your bestselling book, secure Love which has been described as a must read for couples.

Currently you are based in Bosman Montana. Is that correct?

Julie: Yes, that's correct.

Arthur: A place I wish I knew more about. You've also been married for over 24 years and have six children, what's it like to have influenced so many people in helping guide them around the enormous pleasures and challenges of relationships

Julie: first of all, thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here and I feel so fortunate and grateful and honored to be able to what I do with couples in my work and my therapy, my private [00:01:00] practice work, I guess you would say. And I see such profound healing in that space and.

To be able to take that to a broader scale and to give people outside of, what I can just do in my small little setting of private practice I don't think anything could feel better. So it's been just an amazing journey and I'll, I wanna do is just keep giving back as much as I can and keep teaching people.

I, I think the simplest thing to say would be how to love and be loved.

Arthur: moving words. It's of course a huge privilege for you to have your passion and your clearly your kind of life mission to help as many people as you can with this. Where do you feel you're at on that journey?

Julie: I think I'm just getting started. I have a lot to say. I just started my second book and, I think that the longer I do this the more I know and [00:02:00] the more depth I can help people go to as far as their, healing journey and expanding the potential in their relationships. And I continue to put working with real couples at the top of my priority list.

And not just that, but just, the inter the interactional quality I have with my own relationships and my personal life and even my own relationship with myself. And, every day I just learn more and grow more wise and articulate. And it feels to me like I'm just starting to say what I have to say.

Arthur: Wow. Wow. Judy, you, in essence, you became borrower over COVID with your wonderful pictures on Instagram that clearly so many people resonate and have taken so much value from it's hard to imagine that you're still able to learn, given that you clearly know so much can you give us a flavor of the things you're learning at the moment?

Julie: The two main things I do is I help people make sense of their problem, [00:03:00] right? In their relationship and it's almost always going to circle back to the problem is that people are having difficulty communicating vulnerably with each other.

And what happens is when we're talking about something really hard and we don't know how to talk about that vulnerably, and first just establish some emotional safety and some emotional connection before we try to actually go into the kind of problem solving part of it people's protections go up and nobody's feeling really seen and heard.

It, not only do they not end up resolving the actual issue, but they end up getting in these negative cycles and fights with each other. So the heart of my work is, hey, let me just really show you what's actually happening, what's actually causing your relationship to struggle, which is almost the same thing with every couple that I treat.

And then I say, okay, and so now here's what you need to do to get out of that. Here's the kinds of conversations that you need to be having, [00:04:00] often with very specific words to get vulnerable and lead with vulnerability and really find a place of, a strong emotional connection and safety before you try to tackle these hard topics like money or sex or parenting or in-laws or the future.

We have to gather. But I'm really. Taking that to a ne the next level right now, which is, okay, great, like you can see it, you can make sense of it, and I'm giving you the skills to do something new. But a lot of people find that when they need those skills the most, when their nervous systems are dysregulated, they can't use them.

And so now I'm talk, I'm gonna dive more into what's the block here? You have all the information, you know what you're supposed to be doing now, what's getting in your way of actually doing it? We all know we get dysregulated, but what does that actually mean? And what we're going to find there is three core problems.

One is fear, one [00:05:00] is shame and one is unresolved grief. And so now I'm moving into, let's go through all of that. Let's figure out how all of that is getting in your way and what we need to do differently to clear through that so you can put these new skills into practice.

Arthur: Really moving. It's sometimes quite hard for people to understand what great looks like. , Really great relationships? What do they look like what kind of agency do you think we can have in someone else's life?

Give us a sort of flavor of what the best relationships you've come across. The kind of ways that the mentalities that people bring to the table and how they want to support their partner. 'cause it's quite surprising and moving the thought and attention to detail that you hear about that some partners give to,

Their other partners.

Julie: Yes. Yes. I think it's a great question. When we're talking about secure attachment, the building blocks of secure attachment are met attachment needs, and that [00:06:00] means that both partners not just have met attachment needs. And I'll tell you what those are in a moment, but they trust that those needs will continue to be met in the future.

So met attachment needs are these basic needs to feel connected and close to your partner. I need to feel understood. I need to feel like you want to understand me. I need to feel emotionally validated. Even when you disagree with, you know what, we're, talk the solution to the problem. We don't see eye to eye.

I need to know that you can at least step in and validate my fear or validate, whatever my feelings are around this topic. I need to know that you value me, that I'm a priority for you. I need to know that you're not going to, abandon me or betray me. I need to know that you can see me, that you're willing to see who I really am, and appreciate me for what I'm bringing to the table.

That you're not just going to, , define me by my failures or mistakes. So when two people [00:07:00] are interacting. In just a moment, they have to be sending those messages underneath the surface details of the conversation. The messages need to be being sent. I see you, I understand you. I can see your emotions.

I'm here for you. I appreciate you. And if that's not happening, then it's going to cause painful feelings and they won't be able , to keep talking about the topic. If they're now struggling and under there going, okay, I am hurting because I don't feel validated.

Okay, I'm feeling alone because I'm not really feeling understood by you. So I've gotta figure out how I go in and help those couples moment to moment meet each other's attachment needs and their communication. But it doesn't end there because that's not enough. Not only do they need to know their attachment needs are met in a moment, like I said, they also have to trust that tomorrow my attachment needs are going to be met, or a year from now my attachment needs are going to be met.

So I've gotta [00:08:00] get couples learning how to do this with each other in real time. But I also have to help them create the environment where they're continuing to do it day after day.

Arthur: So beautifully per and that sense of trust in the future. What's so remarkable about the world is when people know us, maybe it's a romantic partner or a friend it's remarkable what you can learn about yourself through other people.

Julie: Yep.

Arthur: There's amazing content that you've got around all sorts of things like, conflict and how to meet one's needs and how to bridge all sorts of gaps. But you really describe how so many roots of and challenges of great relationships come from.

Needs not being met, it can create anger or resentment or bitterness or et cetera, et cetera. Let's say someone doesn't have a need that's met.

Could you just give us like a sort of flavor on the right way for people to approach that conflict

That learning curve.

Julie: Sure. So if a partner [00:09:00] says to me, I'm really feeling invalidated in the relationship, okay, that's vague. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, when was the last time this happened? When was the last time that you felt invalidated? That helps couples narrow these unmet needs down to a moment where they actually happened, right?

And so they say I said, we need to talk about money. And my partner just said, oh, I just want to, I'm, I just want to bring up problems. I can't, I'm not happy unless I'm just talking about problems. So then what happens is, I'm getting the message that my feelings don't matter here, that I'm just randomly wanting to fight when I'm actually carrying some anxiety around money.

And I want to soothe that anxiety by helping us come together and make a plan. And so when they feel invalidated. Their nervous system starts to have a reaction because that's not safe. We can't feel safe and close if we're not feeling seen and validated by our partner. So [00:10:00] what's, what is the emotional word that we give to that feeling of unsafe?

Scared. Scared of what? Scared that you're not hearing me scared that you're not here for me. Scared that we're not gonna get through this problem together. Scared that we won't feel like a team scared. That maybe we won't get our, through our problems together in the future. It can get really big.

And so then on top of that, what happens if that's true? If that's true and we don't get through this and I'm actually alone, that's awful. That's a sad place. Then I'm gonna have to feel like we're disconnected and we're not a team, and that's lonely and that's sad.

And then on top of that, I might, just continue to feel scared about money. And that's sad and that's not good. And so what happens is my body then goes into this protective state where I wanna bring attention to the problem and get you to hear me. And so then I get louder and I try to bring attention to the problem.

But then all is the anger. And now you feel like, attacked or whatever, and [00:11:00] you go into your, your feelings spiral. And now we're in this negative cycle. So that's the moment, right? It happens so fast. What took me, I don't know, 90 seconds to just explain, happens in one 30th of a second between partners.

So to circle back to your question, how do we get that need met? I've just gotta, first of all, let's restructure that, that whole conversation. Let's do it in a different way, which is, I need for you. Instead of just immediately going into anger and saying, look, see, you never listen to me when all this stuff comes up inside of you.

I need you to learn to say, listen, I know this is a hard topic for you and we, in the past when we've talked about money, it hasn't gone to the best place. So it makes sense to me that you might want to avoid this. But at the same time, I'm carrying a lot of anxiety around this.

Sometimes I stay up at night worrying about money, and if we don't talk about it and figure out a way to reach each other, then I'm gonna feel alone. So can you help me out here? [00:12:00] But if I get that person to, to deliver that with vulnerability and make an invitation instead of an accusation, I have to have the other partner learning how to hold that.

And they've gotta know all about their stuff and their triggers and what might come up in them that would block that. And so they've learned to, through kind of the same process of they, they have to learn to say, okay, I'm right here. I hear you. Something big's coming up for you. Yes, it's true there.

I have an urge inside of me to wanna shut this conversation down 'cause it's led to a fight in the past. But I'm willing to stay in here with you on that. Let's see what we can do. Let's see how we can work together here to feel safe in this conversation.

Arthur: Super interesting sometimes in a relationship, there's a big, upset let's say. And you almost need to go through the talking table, but then other times there's like really small things that can be quite, frustrating.

And I imagine that, the same way of addressing that is applicable, Maybe it's [00:13:00] having a comment ignored, for example. Or your partner asked, what do you think of this dress? Or Do you like my shirt? And there's not really a sense of care from the other partner.

You might be left thinking, oh, do they not care when actually they're working out, did they make a booking or not? And it can be hard to know when is someone over gearing on the communication?

Where I want to swing to, so often in life we can be in the same situation with someone and have a very clear sense of what we think the other person is viewing the situation as, which is very different to how we feel what's happening.

And one person, for example, might want to be showing love and be thinking really positive about someone in a particular moment. But other person might be very triggered in that situation, be filled with fear. And just a complete, miscommunication over two people dealing with their own.

Worlds [00:14:00] anxieties. And I guess the sadness is when time moves on you don't see those mismatches.

Julie: Yeah, that's hard. And to be honest with you, I think it's those little things that look little, that take couples down as much as big things, like affairs. It's these moments of a thousand paper cuts of feeling emotionally dropped or emotionally abandoned. If that situation that you're describing happens, right? That tells me that it, it seems so small, right? To be ignored and unseen for a comment that you say, but if this person has spent years or months feeling unheard and unseen in other situations over and over again, and maybe in their childhood before that being unheard and unseen that isn't little for them.

It in their, it might be in their head looking back later, they can say, oh, that wasn't a big deal. Why did it? Might just let that go. But for their nervous system, it's a real threat. It feels like I'm not being seen. Am I invisible here? And what if I am invisible? Am I lovable? Am I worthy [00:15:00] of connection?

What if I never feel seen? What if, I love this quote. The only thing partners are ever really asking each other is, are you going to be there for me when I really need you? So in that person's nervous system, it can feel like, if you're not even willing to look at me and answer me about this dress, are you gonna be there for me later when I really need you?

So that tells me that person isn't safe. Okay? Anybody who reacts to that already isn't feeling safe. So now I gotta figure out why is this person not feeling safe? Is it because they're having a hard time, even in the most safest environment possible, feeling safe because their nervous system has been wired to seek unsafe?

Or is it because they really are in a relationship where there's a lot of little micro. Abandonments and this is just one of them. So now I've gotta get them talking about this in a new way, right? Let me say this, there are two different options in that situation.

If you're the person and you say, Hey, do you like my [00:16:00] dress? And your partners just completely blank, right? You might say to yourself, you know what, this is one of those moments where I'm starting to feel un unseen and unheard, and it's taking me to that scared place where my mind just goes to the worst case scenario.

But my partner and I have talked a lot about this, and I'm learning that maybe that's not the case right now, and we've done some work. And what's another explanation? Another explanation might be that they're just thinking about something else. And that's like a self-soothing approach, right?

And then you wait and see and let it go. And maybe if it happens again, then you say something. But let's say not, let's say this is a pattern, then you might wanna say something like, Hey, what happens is I, I asked about my dress and I didn't hear you respond, and it could have been that you had something else going on, me, my nervous system gets a little scared.

Can I just get some reassurance here and open up that conversation in a safe way? The better thing to do though, is to not bring it up at all, right? [00:17:00] Then maybe if you're new to work and later bring it up when things are safe and calm and you're not in a hurry and say, I notice that sometimes, I start to feel, when I don't get a response from you, I start to feel like, are you there?

Can I reach you? And can we talk about that? Before we even try to talk about it, can I just get some reassurance that matters to you, that those little micro moments matter to you? So it's, and then the other partner, I'm describing one partner who's reaching with vulnerability, but I also need the other partner to be able to respond to that from their own vulnerability, which might sound like no, I was just often thought, but they need to have space to say, sometimes it can be really hard for me when I feel like I'm just only defined by the moments when I'm not showing up and that takes me to a lonely place.

Now you're probably wondering what happens when they're going back and forth with all of this, and it starts to get into this [00:18:00] but I feel this, and then I feel that. But I feel this and I feel that. And then we have this whole, like what can sound like a lot of overcommunication, this is when partners really need to have structure around the way they reach to each other.

Meaning that if I come to you because of this moment or this pattern of moments when I feel dropped, when I say these little things you don't get lost in your stuff. You're able to lean into me, hear me, soothe me. How can I help you with this in the future? And then later we can maybe talk about your stuff when my stuff has been held or if your partner brings something to you, you lean into that and go, Hey, help me tell me more.

Okay. So when you say something in those moments where I'm just drifting off, that leaves you feeling really scared. I get that. That makes sense. And then later, I might wanna bring something up of mine. But we're not trying to do it all at once. So you can see this is, there's just a lot of what I'm trying to do isn't necessarily just trying to fix that moment where the [00:19:00] partner says, why aren't you listening?

It's, I'm trying to fix the whole environment. Why is this person not feeling safe at all right here and there? And sometimes it's not the relationship. Sometimes it's their past where they've felt so ignored and unseen for so many years in their life that their nervous system has been trained to see that threat even when it might not be there.

And that, and in that case, that person has some self-work to do.

Arthur: Wow. It's quite remarkable to be being someone who's who's got such an expertise in this and able to draw upon so many different situations in realities and the reality here, right? Is it's complicated. Drawing into even the timing, challenge, it's not always the best time if someone's stressed, for example, to bring these things up.

The concept of always mentioning things that are annoying in a relationship, always being mentioned, it doesn't necessarily make sense, right? And playing the smart approach, like the self-soothing, and there's just loads of different elements at play that ultimately make sense.

You dug a [00:20:00] little bit into the concept of history and we've all, got different childhoods, et cetera, et cetera and re romantic experience and whatnot needs, et cetera, attachment styles. There's this concept of

norming, storming and performing in working in a team. And how conflict, once you've had that conflict, you can really perform. How can one in a relationship best navigate around trying to, in the early stages, learn around what someone's unique needs are, or rationalities or fears.

And I think a difficult one to probably crack is, for example, like parents and how their parents are versus your own parents and that kind of environment. And because what is normal to ask can be so different to other people. Do you have comments around the, around that?

Julie: Are you saying, how do we learn to like, accommodate each other's kind of unique sensitivities and unique needs based on the stuff that we're bringing to the table.

Arthur: Yeah. Based on the fact that [00:21:00] when you enter a relationship, you don't have information on their history, their family, and there's a way to naturally work these things out that doesn't feel too overwhelming for people. And I think for many lessons it'll be really great to just get your advice on that.

Julie: Yeah. The reality is that we all have the same basic needs, right? We all have the same basic relationship, needs to feel safe and close. We all need to feel understood. We all need to feel emotionally validated, whether we know it or not, whether we have words for that or not. We all need to feel appreciative for our efforts.

We all need to feel safe from abandonment and rejection. We all need to feel heard. We all need to feel seen, basically. That's it, right? It's that, before couples can ever go beyond any, into any other realm of talking about things or working through a problem or whatever it is, [00:22:00] they have to be able to do that.

They have to be able to start the conversation off and start the foundation of the relationship is those met attachment needs. That creates the security. When partners have that, then everything else will fall into place. That's when they can get to a point where, Hey, is the topic of money is hard.

The topic of politics is hard, but hard topics don't have to become fights. They become fights when we're not doing it with emotional safety and connection. And so we need to understand if those attachment needs aren't met, what's getting in the way? And that's when we wanna look like, what's getting in the way is maybe you grew up in a home where nobody cared about your feelings.

So the only way you learned to do feelings was just not talk about them at all. Just stuff them away. Just go into your head. Just tell yourself you shouldn't feel the way you do. And so now that's how you try to help your partner, [00:23:00] is you try to just get their feelings to go away or just tell them, you should see it in a new way or go up into the details and not do feelings at all.

So the first thing that we're doing, no matter what, is we're just learning how to find emotional safety and connection and working backwards from there into what's blocking us from being able to do that.

Arthur: It seems like there's no greater, journey more rewarding in life than a great partnership but clearly what's pivotal to that is having a good relationship with yourself. How can one rain check to see, to work out what their relationship is like with themself, work out the areas that need to be changed and maybe how one can change those things.

Julie: Yeah. So I think that the first thing we have to get good at is catching our discomfort and catching our trigger. And then being able to, maybe not every single little thing that comes along, but enough of the time to, to explore that. Because what happens is if we get [00:24:00] uncomfortable, we get some sort of trigger and we don't do anything with it, then it's probably just gonna come out later, or, it's just, it's that those feelings are gonna stay in your body.

And it's gonna show up somehow, right? Let me just give you an example. Let's say that, that last question I answered, like I I feel like, oh, I didn't really fully answer that question. I didn't do that question justice, right? And so I get off of this, call and I'm just feeling oh, I can't believe it.

I wish I would've said that a different way. And then I just go into my day without really, tending to that. But it just creates this little, niggle of anxiety in my body that just, then just other things come along and, by the end of the

Arthur: takes you down a notch.

Julie: out.

Exactly. So let's say instead I step back after and I go, okay, what's going on? What? And I look at that question and I think what's so bad about not answering that question right? What's so bad about it is, I don't know, like I'll look like a fool or I won't, people won't understand what I'm saying and they won't get helped [00:25:00] by it or, okay, what happens if, let's just say it's about me, right?

And what happens if you look like a fool? I won't get respected. What happens if I don't get respected? I'll feel bad. I'll feel yucky. I'll feel, that's a sad, bad place to go. That's a lonely place to go. I might get rejected. Have you ever felt like that before?

Yeah, I felt like that before in life. It's a bad place. It doesn't feel good to, to feel, to feel rejected. It's lonely there. And then as you start work talking to yourself about these fears and the shame place, you start to feel softening. You start to feel the sadness around that. And then you just sit there in that sadness and all of a sudden everything just sorts of starts to clear up.

Because we can handle that. You can handle the sadness there. It's not the end of the world. It's just feeling a little bit of grief. It's just you know what? I have felt this before in my life. Yeah, it's a bad place to go. Your nervous system needs to do that. Otherwise, it [00:26:00] just stays stuck in this kind of like lingering anxiety place.

And then your partner comes home later and they say something and then the next thing you're just you're overreacting, but you're not really overreacting. You're just reacting to all this stuff that's been building up in your nervous system your whole life. So we've gotta learn how to just step back, soothe those places.

Maybe I call my husband and say, oh, I just did this podcast and you know me. I answered a question wrong and I start getting those rejection fears and he's just there for me and he supports me, and now I'm not alone with it. And not being alone with it helps offset the fear of being alone to begin with.

So it just starts to work.

Arthur: That's so applicable to so much, right?

It can be so many challenges. And that we are in one sense alone with right when we're dealt with a new challenge and then yeah, labeling it, sitting with it acknowledging it, realizing, whoa, of course I feel like this because of that.[00:27:00]

And then probably context setting, right? And like drawing back into reality.

Julie: Getting to the heart of it, I think.

Arthur: yeah.

Julie: and then some people too, just to put this out there. Some people with that, they might do something else, they might go I've just gotta work harder. I've just gotta work harder to learn more and to and to be more organized. And then they go into that, there's so many different, some people might say now I just need to go have a drink.

To get rid of this anxiety. There's all sorts of ways that people cope with those little feelings that can not really

Arthur: I don't wanna go down. I want to, I wanna look up, I want to keep, how do I get higher on the wave type vibe?

Julie: exactly.

Arthur: Yeah. Really interesting suit. Actually what you are saying is no. Stop trying to, avoid the uncomfortable feeling. Go sit with it.

Julie: Sit with it. And that's the

Arthur: what's happening.

Julie: Yeah. That's what I do, is I, is, I teach people vulnerability. In that situation, I just got vulnerable with myself. I really started to put my fears, [00:28:00] my shame, my grief to words. And we can't really get vulnerable with other people unless we first know how to do that with ourselves.

And so what happens is we get stuck basically. The only other alternative with feelings. To getting vulnerable is to stay stuck in anger and anxiety indefinitely.

Arthur: Yeah. It seems like learning about how to have the best relationship. There's so many learnings that around actually how to be with yourself, right? That that, aren't related to being with someone. It's actually been with yourself.

Julie: It's so important. You can't, if you don't get to know yourself, there's nothing for what is it? If you don't do the self work, you don't have anything to share, there's nothing to share.

Arthur: [00:29:00] How do you think people can become more, stay more constantly healthily connected to themselves? So let's say, people have got their week, their day,

Mates in the evening, they're back at work. Day two we week going fine day three, challenges have hit and they're slightly in panic mode.

, Do you have anything you want to add on how people can get back to that? Whoa, everything's fine. Whilst, as you put it, go down the wave and facing it.

Julie: Yeah. You have to be able to tap in. When you're going out and navigating life, you've got all these feelings coming at you left and right. And a lot of those feelings are going to be slightly triggering. Like little [00:30:00] anxieties coming at you, little bits of pressure coming at you, little bits of someone being disappointed, little bits of worried about being late.

And they, it starts to build up and, to get through the day, we have to go into this dissociated state to some degree where we aren't sitting there and processing all of it because we have a job to do. We have to get through the day. And so sometimes with the speed at which our society travels, we stay in that dissociated state and we have to build times into our day to come out and tap in what's going on with me right now.

Do I feel a little angsty? Yeah. I feel a little angsty in my body. What's going, what's the fear? Lemme see if I can put some words to that. Maybe you were late to a meeting or maybe someone. Didn't like your project or you got a bad comment on something and you just it doesn't have to be every single little thing because a lot of the thing is all these triggers, they're gonna go to the same place.

They're all gonna go down into loneliness and sadness and a [00:31:00] human vulnerability place. They wouldn't be triggers if they didn't. And so we have to just take some time to step in there and just sit with our feelings and let some of that metabolize. I think for me prayer is a really good way to get there.

It just, it slows down. It is a way to tap into yourself, but not be quite so alone If you have some sort of, spiritual support system in your life, whatever that is for people it's a way to be alone without being alone. So it's just really being intentional about slowing down, and I don't mean just slowing down and.

Reading a book or sitting in the park, intentionally really trying to get in with your feelings, going home to your insides and dealing and intending to that, helping yourself emotionally. Because if you're not, again, you're not giving yourself space to actually feel any of that stuff.

And so your body is just gonna stay stuck in anger and anxiety, which are [00:32:00] take action emotions. And so you're just gonna be chronically in this state of take action, crash, take action, crash. And the relationship version of that is is these periods of fighting. The

Arthur: So fascinating, and I really stress everyone checks out your material because you've really gotta a powerful way with how you communicate. These really useful messages in really relatable context, but also clear kind of practical takeaways, which, who doesn't love some clear, places to look for quick wins

Julie: you saying that because for me, I'm not being clear at all. I'm just like, oh God, why can't I say this

Arthur: you are hitting more of the target than you think and to over a million people. My God. But you really beautifully encompass what anxious attachment style can be the product from and how it's the product of people ban themselves. And that's so relevant to our conversation around people, wanting to, and I think it's like very logical, [00:33:00] right?

People wanting to avoid the acknowledgement of maybe stress points or fear points

Might experience in the day lives busy. So it's quite interesting how the attachment styles can help us, teach us about ourself in that

Julie: Absolutely. Yep.

Arthur: Do you think, Julie. Again, I still feel it's quite hard for many people to really, truly have an idea on what really great relationships look like. And this concept that you've, you talk about, which is people being seen, people feeling connected to others, it seems like that's quite a hard thing, naturally we can tap into doing that for people, but the intentionality can be quite variable on how we do that. Can you give us a flavor of the different ways that the best partner could show up to someone? Maybe it's helping them seat their, see their inner strength, what they're great at.

Could be one another, could [00:34:00] be, doing nice chores for someone to support them. Another could be helping you know, your partner learn things about themself, but there are so many other others and I think it'd be great to hear your sense of how we can be there for our partner.

Julie: Yeah. When you say the chores, we want there to be a healthy division of labor and we want partners to have, conversations where they get to know each other and learn about each other's past and all of these things.

Arthur: I.

Julie: What I would say is let's go back to the basics here.

Let's get the basics down and the basics will help us to go to that next step, which is some of that more like what are the conversations, getting to know each other sound like, or how do we divide chores? Which is, every. Relationships happen in moments, right? There they happen in these isolated moments of interaction.

And so if we're talking about some sort of, let's put [00:35:00] physical interaction over here to the side, that matters too. But let's talk about just verbal interaction, right? Every single moment of interaction needs to have these needs met, where we feel understood, we feel heard, we feel emotionally validated.

Whether we're saying it or whether it's just a felt sense, we know it's there. That has to be there. That is the starting point. So if someone's saying, how can I be a better partner? That's it. Start there. Every time my partner says something to me, every time they bring something up to me, I'm gonna do every single thing that I can.

To help them feel heard, to help them feel seen, to help them feel understood, to help them feel validated in a small way, in a big way. Whatever the way the situation calls for, it doesn't have to be a long conversation, it's just, I'm gonna do what I need to do. And if they don't feel that, I'm gonna figure out what's missing and I'm gonna fill in the gap.

And then from there we start talking about how can I help you with the chores? [00:36:00] Because if there's a problem with chores and they come to you and they say, I'm feeling overwhelmed, the first step isn't , what chores do you want me to do? It's tell me more. Help me understand where you're coming from.

Tell me about overwhelm. Okay. You're feeling overwhelmed. There's a lot on your plate. Okay. So what I think I'm hearing you say is that you're coming home and you're not having any time to rest because all these things need to be done. And that's creating stress for you. And you're saying, I gotta figure something out.

'cause this isn't workable. Am I getting that right? Okay it's definitely not too much that you're feeling overwhelmed. I get overwhelmed too. So let's work together to come up with some sort of solution that's the starting point. Nothing goes forward without that happening.

And if you are hearing your partner and you're validating them, and you're talking about chores, what I have found over and over again is that when couples start that chore conversation from that place, it all just works out on its own because [00:37:00] they wanna help each other. It just, a lot of times when we're fighting about chores to begin with, we're not really fighting about the chores.

We're fighting about, do you care about me? Do you wanna hear me? Do you care about my feelings? Do, does my anxiety matter to you? Do my needs matter to you? And so when we start answering those questions positively in the conversation. Then we don't have to ask them through the coded language of who's going to do the vacuuming, the hoovering, as you would say and great

Arthur: Yeah, exactly. The Great Britain, let's keep the great in there. That's really wonderfully put.

Julie: I've learned that a lot with kids that my kids would come to me with problems and the first thing I wanna do is start solving their problems or tell them not to have the problem. That this is how you're seeing it all wrong, or, don't worry about that. Or I'm gonna call the school.

And, and I really realized that's not the way the, that's not the starting point. The starting point is just leaning in and hearing them. What's going on. Help me understand. Of course you're upset about that. [00:38:00] Of course. That makes you nervous. And nine out of 10 times, that's enough.

That's enough. They're the conversation doesn't even need to go beyond that. They tap in, they, when they feel heard and their nervous system relaxes and they can tap into their own resources and start to go, okay, what can I do here? Or just having that emotional release of sharing is enough.

It's just all they needed. Now in the one time out of 10 that we do need to do something, then the conversation is gonna go a lot more smoothly about what should we do here to take action when everybody's feeling connected and hurt. And the same applies to couples, obviously. It's just, it to me that it's something about the relationship with kids has really driven that point home for me.

Arthur: And yeah, when we love someone, all we want to do is for them to be happy. And sometimes the immediate feeling, the biggest shortcut to that is, is solving the problem right with them. Rather than, as you say, being heard. I think it's really interesting how you [00:39:00] reflect and you talk around how to get them to navigate towards like self-soothing

Julie: Yeah.

Arthur: And the answers probably, something that the great masters of the universe find easier than others. And with good reason. It's not the obvious route.

Julie: That the best way to help someone feel happy is to connect with them.

Arthur: Yeah. With how meet them with

Where they're feeling and the logic on why they're feeling, how they're feeling like that.

Julie: Yes.

Arthur: That's really interesting. A comment you made, there's so many one-liners that you've got just truly brilliant. I love that, how you just said earlier, relationships are, a series of moments, tiny little moments, feelings, things that we say, and memory is very different for different people.

So there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. 'cause it's two, for two people there's different, having two, two people. You said something also quite moving, which is relationships fail from lost, emotional safety, not just love. That must be, how do you personally deal [00:40:00] with that?

When you hear these stories, do you just think, oh, when things don't work out with people, it must be quite painful for you to hear about that, do you try and push people to a pace where it's like you can't control the outcome or the relationship and you know you're gonna be fine?

Julie: When it doesn't work out.

Arthur: Yeah.

Julie: Yeah. Yeah, I think that sometimes things don't work right and so of course we we do have to get to a place where it, at the very least, we've learned to have a strong relationship with ourself and ideally if something isn't gonna work between two people, they can still communicate with each other around it, not working from a place of emotional safety going forward.

If they have kids together or, they can learn to communicate with safety, anybody can learn to communic. With safety, whether they go forward and have, a relationship or not in the future. A committed, a romantic relationship. But, one of the things that I've done a lot with couples is when they [00:41:00] do get to the point where they're feeling really hopeless and they're feeling like we haven't, I don't know that we can ever find it again.

I don't know if we can ever reach each other and find that love that we once had. What I'm gonna do with that, you said earlier, something really important, meet people where they are. That's who they are right then and there. In my office, that's who they are. They're two people who have disconnected from each other.

And so I'm gonna help them connect over who they are right then and there, which is we, I'm that hearing each other's d demoralization, holding each other's hopelessness. Let's just talk about it. Let's help you validate that in each other. Yeah. I feel hopeless. I get it. I get how hopeless you are.

I, I feel it too. I'm so sorry. We've done this to each other. I'm so sorry. We didn't have the skills to reach each other and this really is awful. And a lot of times when you get people doing that, now they're connecting. So I'm not trying to get them to connect [00:42:00] over something that arbitrary. I'm getting them to connect over who they are.

That reality for both of them in the moment, and all of a sudden they're seeing each other and they're not getting triggered by the hopelessness. They're not saying you're giving up too soon, or, you shouldn't feel helpless, or, it wasn't my fault. They're just meeting each other in the pain that they're both in and all.

And a lot of times that starts to build the connection that they're looking for to begin with.

Arthur: Judy you make it seem so simple in, in such a great way. One thing I think is quite special around what you've communicated is how you pitch this concept around when there's tension and challenges. It's not that the other person's the enemy. You two people, you're on the same side, and it's actually just more case of around working out where the

unmet needs are, it feels generally quite exposing to always go back to that wider context of, Hey, listen, we're on the same team. I love you, Ladi da, and then dealing with the the tension. [00:43:00] Do you have a view on that? Do you think that is true in life generally?

That people find it hard to address the wider con context, which is hey, all they want is like the best relationship ever.

Yeah. The, you've mentioned how important it is for people to acknowledge. There's this, almost this like challenge where in a relationship where if problems arise, you two people can very quickly lose sight of the fact that they're on the same team and they both want the same thing, which is to be happy.

And instead they're just thinking about the problem and suddenly they feel like the other person's a problem. And actually that's

True. And it can be vulnerable to admit to the other partner that all you want is them.

Julie: Yeah. What I have found over and over again is that partners aren't, are never really enemies of each other. These negative cycles that they get stuck in are the enemies because they're both scary. They're both scared, right? I'm scared of losing you.

I'm scared of not getting it right for you. I'm scared of you seeing me as [00:44:00] failing. I'm scared of you abandoning me. I'm scared of seeing myself as a failure and a loser. I'm scared of all these things and I don't know how to talk about those fears. I never learned how to be vulnerable. And so we've gotta learn how to get underneath that and say, look, the enemy here isn't us.

The enemy is that both of us don't know how to do vulnerability. And so when we don't know how to do vulnerability, we just start, going into these cycles of protections and our fears and anger gets the best of us. And let's do this differently because our relationship is too important to let these negative cycles, hurt us in this way.

And now we're coming together against a common enemy. And because if you can make something else the enemy, which is actually the truth, right? Then your partner isn't the enemy.

Arthur: Gratitude's it's a powerful instrument. Have you heard of instances in couples where it's used brilliantly?

Julie: Yeah, I think that when someone, they wanna do some work [00:45:00] with themselves and they can let's go back to your example of the partner who didn't look or who didn't respond. When the first partner says, Hey, do you like my dress? So maybe in that moment that partner can step back and go, you know what, this is when the fear gets me.

And, my brain's going to that place where I'm feeling unseen and ignored. Let me put some more evidence out there on the table. My partner actually, they planned this whole night. They're, they made the reservation, they care about me, they wanna be with me, and. Then all of a sudden, when you allow your head to go into that space, you start, the gratitude is actually a place of connection now, because in gratitude, your needs are being met.

And so now you're shifting your brain from being left alone and abandoned into connection. Wonderful. I'm cared for, they love me. They're doing all these nice things for me. And then your nervous system starts to experience, met needs instead of unmet needs [00:46:00] because unmet needs are embedded into in gratitude.

So I would say that gratitude is a place of met needs.

Arthur: Interesting. And contextually we've talked quite a bit today around how connection can be the the great medication against conflict. Turning from good to great, all these like tiny nuance like recognition and social media can do that, right?

With really if you watch a reel. That explains very nuanced feelings related to situations people's and I guess when partners, if they have great communication, they can share those and people can feel remarkable connection.

Julie: Like when you see a social media post that hits you, it resonates with you. You might not know that person who created it, but you feel seen, you feel understood, you feel resonated with. That's where we thrive. And it's nice when it comes from social media, but it's exponentially nicer when it comes from a [00:47:00] real human that we, we know and we share a life with.

And I really don't know that there's anything that feels better than just feeling seen and heard and fully known by another person.

Arthur: Yeah. And reflecting off that, it is called connection for a reason, right? When we see someone we, we like, or it's be, it's because they help us. They bring us to a place where we see the world in a way that you feel very connected. Maybe not just to them.

Like to the world.

Julie: Yes. To yourself. Yeah.

Do something bigger than you. Yeah,

Arthur: Julie we have time for a few quick far questions

A favorite book? Fillmore Artist.

Julie: , My favorite book is probably a Dickens, A Tale, two of Two Cities book I love Oliver Berkman's. 4,000 weeks film, Royal Tenon Bombs. Artist. Ugh. Right now, like right now, probably Mumford and Sons. I just got tickets to see them here in Bozeman. [00:48:00] So

Arthur: Oh wow.

Julie: yeah, I'm excited for that.

Arthur: Yeah.

Julie: been listening to their new album to get ready and it's amazing.

Arthur: Incredible.

Julie: Marcus Mumford. Yeah.

Arthur: Yeah.. Words you tell your younger self.

Julie: you deserved more than that. You deserved better than that

Arthur: You can add one thing to a bucket list today, what would you like to add?

Julie: I'd really love to be on Drew Barrymore show. That would be a bucket list item. I love

Arthur: Amazing amazing. One thing you'd like to learn more about.

Julie: I have, I speak Italian. I've been learning Italian for many years, and I want to keep learning and learning just more about the language.

Arthur: Yeah. Wonderful. Judy, it's been such a pleasure having you here today. Really grateful.

Julie: It's been lovely. Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

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